As a young christian I remember having favorite preachers. For quite a number of years the interpretation I gave to certain scriptures was the same my "Favorite preachers" gave to them. Back then whatever my "favorite preachers" said was right and at some point I even preached whatever they said word for word (without referring back to the Word).

As the years passed by I started questioning some of these interpretations and I Iearnt to wait on the Holy spirit to reveal the right interpretations. I'm still doing study around some of these questions though but I just thot to share them.

I believe revelational knowledge is progressive and I think its very important for believers to always check the word for themselves regardless (doesn't matter who said it).

I didn't put this up to discredit anyone or ministry, this is js an avenue for a honest discussion, where we can all learn the truth.

These are some of the questions I asked myself

Isaiah 53:4-5 and 1pet. 2:24 really talking about physical healing?

Did Jesus have to suffer in hell or was the work finished at the cross?

What are the blessings of Abraham referred to in Gal. 3:13-14?

Is 2Corinthians 8:9 talking about physical riches or something else?

Is Romans 8:19-24 talking about some future manifestations of saints on earth or the rapture?

What does Romans 8:32 rily mean: "He that spared not his son....also give us all things"

Mark 11:23, will a believer truly have whatever he says?

Thanks

wordthots: As a young christian I remember having favorite preachers. For quite a number of years the interpretation I gave to certain scriptures was the same my "Favorite preachers" gave to them. Back then whatever my "favorite preachers" said was right and at some point I even preached whatever they said word for word (without referring back to the Word).

As the years passed by I started questioning some of these interpretations and I Iearnt to wait on the Holy spirit to reveal the right interpretations. I'm still doing study around some of these questions though but I just thot to share them.

I believe revelational knowledge is progressive and I think its very important for believers to always check the word for themselves regardless (doesn't matter who said it).

I didn't put this up to discredit anyone or ministry, this is js an avenue for a honest discussion, where we can all learn the truth.

These are some of the questions I asked myself

Is Romans 8:19-24 talking about some future manifestations of saints on earth or the rapture?


Thanks

These are questions that had always pushed me to study my bible more and though I've learnt a lot in the process,i am still a bible student exploring the unsearchable riches of Christ.I'll attempt the highlighted while i leave other brethren to attend to others.Also i will not put all the contents of the verses here for brevity sake.try and pick up your bible and read through.

I'll start from 2 verses before @verse 17.
Rom 8:17 says if we suffer with him,we'll be glorified together.Now verse 18 talks about a future glory to be revealed in us and which is greater than any suffering of the present time(see also 2cor4:17-18).Coming to verse 19 which says

''For the earnest expectation of the creature(ie all God's creation,humans,animals,plants in short all living things) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God''.Verse 20 tells us why all living things are waiting

''For the creature(God's creation;all living things) was made subject to vanity,not willingly,but by reason of him who had subjected the same in hope'' how were they made subject to vanity we ask? Gen 3:19c answers

''.....for dust thou(Adam who was head of all living things on earth) art and unto dust shalt thou return''The vanity talked about is death which came through Adam.We all know the story of the fall.nothing lives for ever on this earth.every living thing owes the debt of physical death but there will be a deliverance from this curse as verse 21 shows

''Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption(susceptibility to pain,sickness,old age,misery and of course death)into the glorious liberty of the children of God''.The glorious liberty is the freedom from the failings associated with the human body housing our soul and spirit.

Phil 3:21 tells us our vile body will be changed to become like Christ's glorious body and that is the body that will go in the rapture of the church and the coming kingdom of God on earth.in Romans 8:23,the end part reads thus ''.....waiting for the adoption,to wit,the redemption of our body which reiterates the changing of our vile body which is subject to the elements of this world into a body like Christ's.see also Eph 1:13-14.

So I'll say its talking about both manifestations and rapture.

i sincerely hope I'm not derailing the thread.

God bless us all

I'm a student, not a scholar.

wordthots:

Isaiah 53:4-5 and 1pet. 2:24 really talking about physical healing?

Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely he hath borne our griefs,and carried our sorrows:yet we did esteem him stricken,smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions,he was bruised for our iniquities:the chastisement of our peace was upon him;and with his stripes we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness:by whose stripes ye were healed.


The word "HEALED" primarily referes to cure. but It's total package. And Physical healing,salvation and general well being inclusive.

Did Jesus have to suffer in hell or was the work finished at the cross?

The bible didn't say he suffered in hell. He triumphed in hell. But if the question is to know if Jesus went to hell , he did. He triumphed on the cross by dying for our sins. But he had to go to hell,to finish up. Pronounce salvation,set captives free. Rose up. He had to defeat death. And obtain the power of hell and death.

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What are the blessings of Abraham referred to in Gal. 3:13-14?

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


It's a total package. Salvation ,deliverance,prosperity etc. what was God promise to Abraham?

Genesis 12:2
And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Is 2Corinthians 8:9 talking about physical riches or something else?

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2 Corinthians 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

It's talking about physical richies primarily.

Is Romans 8:19-24 talking about some future manifestations of saints on earth or the rapture?

Romans 8:19
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

It's not applicable to the rapture but Its applicable to our dispensation and partially to the millennial reign of christ. The book of ephesians tells us that "all things are under his feet" but the truth is that Legally all things are under the feat of Jesus but vitally, all things are not yet underfoot. We are responsible to put things underfoot in our world.

Hebrews 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Jesus will not come until we put all enemies where they belong and restore all things .thats the mature church.

Acts 3:21
For he must remain in heaven until the final recovery of all things . . .

What does Romans 8:32 rily mean: "He that spared not his son....also give us all things"

If God says "all things" he means all things. It's a total package.

Mark 11:23, will a believer truly have whatever he says?
Thanks

If he can have the faith required he can,even to the moving of mountain but. Faith must be exercised according to the will of God. Not our flesh.

Galatians 5:13
. . . .only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient:all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.


I agree with you there are some extreme interpretations. Everyone shoud study the bible for himself. You must question your belief like the berean church. Salvation is personal

I hold a contrary opinion to what paul said in 2cor8:9: "for you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was RICH, yet for your sakes he became poor so that so that you through his poverty might become RICH. I don't think that verse of scripture is talking about physical riches but rather we should be rich in generosity as exemplified by Christ..if u read the entire chapter 8..you will notice that the macedonian churches are poor, but even in their extreme poverty they are always joyous and rich in generosity which ties up to what the believers were doing in ACTS4:32: "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had...and this does not also contradicts paul letters to timothy in which he said:"command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth which is so uncertain but to put their hope in God who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment(sadly this is where most pentecostal churches stop at)look at what the next verse says"Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds AND TO BE GENEROUS AND WILLING TO SHARE...in this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age..(1timothy6:17-20)which also agrees with what Jesus said in mat6:19...do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth....but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven.....the macedonian church practised Equality as it is written: " He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little." To me dats perfection..God was trying to teach the children of isreal this technology in exodus 16:18..but they never understood God principles..God always supply your needs at the EXACT point you needed it to be met and not to overly supply them as preached in churches these days..seeking the Kingdom of God entails not having cars, clothing, food, houses which unbelievers seek as your main priority But God as your priority..but it is rather sad that the prosperity gospel has shifted it to materiality.

Bidam: I hold a contrary opinion to what paul said in 2cor8:9: "for you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was RICH, yet for your sakes he became poor so that so that you through his poverty might become RICH. I don't think that verse of scripture is talking about physical riches but rather we should be rich in generosity as exemplified by Christ.
.

The question I may ask is : was Jesus poor in generosity? Because whatever richies he want us to have is based on what he lacked. If the riches is generosity , that means Jesus was lacking generosity , he became stingy that we through his stinginess can become generous. That may not fit in well .

Besides The Greek word for riches refers to material wealth .while the Greek word for poverty means to lack in material things

good post. Will be back !

@ image 123 guess ur right

@ candour thanks, great stuff bro

Back then I was made to believe that the manifestations on earth was goin to happen before the rapture. Manifesting at the workplace, manifesting in ur neighbourhood, manifesting with wealth n all that (that's what I meant by future manifestations on earth) until I read the scripture properly about 2years ago and realized it was talking about redemption from our vile bodies (the rapture and the reign on earth).

At Jo, thanks Bro


4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows[a] that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins!

5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.

6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

I used to be of the same opinion that it was referring to physical healing, but right now I don't think so, I'm still doing my study on it though.

If you look thru the verses, it seems to follow same line of thought. The verses seem to have the same undertone, which is sin. In 1 pet 2:24 its the same, its like the writers were referring to healing not necessarily in the physical sense, but more like "spiritual" ( for lack of a better word) healing. The healing looks figurative.

Ofcourse this isn't to say that healing and health isn't part of the package like you rightly said. I believe its Gods will for us to live in health and be well. Jesus is the same yesteday today and forever; He did it then, he will do it now.
But I'm not so sure this was referring to physical healing, I still stand to be corrected though.

I agree with Bidam to a certain extent about 2cor 8:9

Now this had made us ask Titus, who has already done so much among you, to complete his task by arranging for you too to share in this work of generosity. Already you are well to the fore in every good quality—you have faith, you can express that faith in words; you have knowledge, enthusiasm and your love for us. Could you not add generosity to your virtues? I don’t want you to read this as an order. It is only my suggestion, prompted by what I have seen in others of eagerness to help, and here is a way to prove the reality of your love. Do you remember the generosity of Jesus Christ, the Lord of us all? He was rich beyond our telling, yet he became poor for your sakes so that his poverty might make you rich.( JB Phillips)

It was talking about Jesus generosity and giving it as an example. I think a good parallel scripture will be phillipians 2. It seems to me that 2cor. 8:9 Is figurative.

Joagbaje:

The bible didn't say he suffered in hell. He triumphed in hell. But if the question is to know if Jesus went to hell , he did. He triumphed on the cross by dying for our sins. But he had to go to hell,to finish up. Pronounce salvation,set captives free. Rose up. He had to defeat death. And obtain the power of hell and death.

Jesus Christ went to Hades or the grave where he lay dead for 3 days , and was raised up by the power of his father's Spirit on the 3rd day.

"Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him."

Jesus did not go to a bogus hell and meet with demons to triumph over them, this is the stuff of fantasy.

Joagbaje:

The question I may ask is : was Jesus poor in generosity? Because whatever richies he want us to have is based on what he lacked. If the riches is generosity , that means Jesus was lacking generosity , he became stingy that we through his stinginess can become generous. That may not fit in well .

Besides The Greek word for riches refers to material wealth .while the Greek word for poverty means to lack in material things

you yourselve said it na..u can't give wat you don't have..wat Jesus had he gave..infact He emptied Himself..that was why he acknowledges he acknowledges the widow who gave her all(luke 21:1-4)..the intent is the state of the HEART..the hebrew meaning might have been lost on our greek translators..u never can tell.

@jo, I totally agree with you that Jesus didn't suffer in hell, but rather was victorious from the cross. Colossians 2:15 makes this clear that he spoilt principalities and powers (made a public show of them) triumphing over them ON tHE CROSS.

I first saw the "suffering in hell teaching" in some materials by kenyon and I think hagin ( this is not to discredit anyone) some years back and I believed it and even preached it.
The teaching was based on the fact that Jesus became sin and since He became sin, he had to go to hell to suffer.
But after doing a study I realised Jesus was victorious from the cross, paying the debt in full. There was no need to suffer he went in victorious.

wordthots: @ image 123 guess ur right

@ candour thanks, great stuff bro

Back then I was made to believe that the manifestations on earth was goin to happen before the rapture. Manifesting at the workplace, manifesting in ur neighbourhood, manifesting with wealth n all that (that's what I meant by future manifestations on earth) until I read the scripture properly about 2years ago and realized it was talking about redemption from our vile bodies (the rapture and the reign on earth).

you are welcome brother.

I read a book by a prominent nigerian MOG propagating the same thing and i swallowed it hook,line and sinker as it promised mega riches and powers.However when i started studying the bible on my own,the whole doctrine of christians TAKING OVER THE WORLD through miraculous manifestations came tumbling down.i finally stumbled on JOEL'S ARMY THEOLOGY and DOMINION THEOLOGY on the internet and this made me understand the focus of our MOG's on building visible business and religious empires.They truly believe they're conquering the world physically for Christ.We truly need a reminder of why Christ came.

wordthots:
@jo, I totally agree with you that Jesus didn't suffer in hell, but rather was victorious from the cross. Colossians 2:15 makes this clear that he spoilt principalities and powers (made a public show of them) triumphing over them ON tHE CROSS.

I first saw the "suffering in hell teaching" in some materials by kenyon and I think hagin ( this is not to discredit anyone) some years back and I believed it and even preached it.
The teaching was based on the fact that Jesus became sin and since He became sin, he had to go to hell to suffer.
But after doing a study I realised Jesus was victorious from the cross, paying the debt in full. There was no need to suffer he went in victorious.

good man !

Bidam: you yourselve said it na..u can't give wat you don't have..wat Jesus had he gave..infact He emptied Himself..that was why he acknowledges he acknowledges the widow who gave her all(luke 21:1-4)..the intent is the state of the HEART..the hebrew meaning might have been lost on our greek translators..u never can tell.

Are you still maintaining that the riches is not material ?

wordthots:
@jo, I totally agree with you that Jesus didn't suffer in hell, but rather was victorious from the cross. Colossians 2:15 makes this clear that he spoilt principalities and powers (made a public show of them) triumphing over them ON tHE CROSS.

I first saw the "suffering in hell teaching" in some materials by kenyon and I think hagin ( this is not to discredit anyone) some years back and I believed it and even preached it.
The teaching was based on the fact that Jesus became sin and since He became sin, he had to go to hell to suffer.
But after doing a study I realised Jesus was victorious from the cross, paying the debt in full. There was no need to suffer he went in victorious.

wordthots:
@jo, I totally agree with you that Jesus didn't suffer in hell, but rather was victorious from the cross. Colossians 2:15 makes this clear that he spoilt principalities and powers (made a public show of them) triumphing over them ON tHE CROSS.

You're right I used to think so too until I checked it in other translations. But can you remember the particular material of Kenyon and Hagin ?

Joagbaje:

Are you still maintaining that the riches is not material ?

i didn't say so..u implied it by my post..the secret behind wealth is giving(generosity) and it is manifested both physically and spiritually..pls understand my point.

wordthots: At Jo, thanks Bro


4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried; it was our sorrows[a] that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins!

5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,
crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we could be healed.

6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God’s paths to follow our own. Yet the Lord laid on him
the sins of us all.

I used to be of the same opinion that it was referring to physical healing, but right now I don't think so, I'm still doing my study on it though.

If you look thru the verses, it seems to follow same line of thought. The verses seem to have the same undertone, which is sin. In 1 pet 2:24 its the same, its like the writers were referring to healing not necessarily in the physical sense, but more like "spiritual" ( for lack of a better word) healing. The healing looks figurative.

Ofcourse this isn't to say that healing and health isn't part of the package like you rightly said. I believe its Gods will for us to live in health and be well. Jesus is the same yesteday today and forever; He did it then, he will do it now.
But I'm not so sure this was referring to physical healing, I still stand to be corrected though.

Is. 53:4-5 is primarily about physical healing. In Matt. 8:16 the Bible says that Jesus cast out demons with His word and healed all the sick, thereby fufilling Isaiah's prophecy in 53:4. There was no question in Matthew's mind that it was physical healing that was in reference.

@nimediator thanks bro
@ Jo thanks
the kenyon book- what happened from the cross to the throne, then I think "identification" too.
Not sure of the Hagin book, but I still have some of his books on my system, would check them out and get back to you.
The teaching is very popular in WOF circles cause I had heard quite a number of preachers say it. Anyways I believe revelational knowledge is progressive and I Thank God for the truth.

@ Candour bro I agree with you. This messages just appeal to our senses. There's a natural craving man has for dominion, riches and comfort.
I remember I was at a conference last year, where the pastor said he believes one of the reasons why Jesus hasn't come is because the wealth of gentiles must come to us (christians) and I was totally amazed. Years back I will probably have believed it but thank God for the truth in word.
I also preached this message years back; in the last days christians were going to be very wealthy and I rememba even saying things like the next steve jobs wd be a christian and all my emphasis was just on self. The truth is the bible is clear enough about the last days and all its happenings. Most of dis messages just appeal to our cravings.

[quote author=Joagbaje]

If he can have the faith required he can,even to the moving of mountain but. Faith must be exercised according to the will of God. Not our flesh.

Thanks bro, on point

I had to ask myself this question, a while back. I remember talking to a friend about the Blackberry porsche phone and how expensive it was. He then jokingly said he was going to add it to his confessions. I asked him if he thought he was really going to get it by doing that and he gave an emphatic yes. His scriptural backing mark 11:23:

For verily, I say to you, WHOSOEVER shall say to this mountain...HE SHALL HAVE WHATSOEVER HE SAITH.

With emphasis on the capitals. I honestly felt that was taking it too far. Like I said earlier man has certain cravings and its very easy for us to inteprete scriptures to appeal to these cravings.

wordthots: .
[quote author=Joagbaje]

I had to ask myself this question, a while back. I remember talking to a friend about the Blackberry porsche phone and how expensive it was. He then jokingly said he was going to add it to his confessions. I asked him if he thought he was really going to get it by doing that and he gave an emphatic yes. His scriptural backing mark 11:23:For verily, I say to you, WHOSOEVER shall say to this mountain...HE SHALL HAVE WHATSOEVER HE SAITH.

With emphasis on the capitals. I honestly felt that was taking it too far. Like I said earlier man has certain cravings and its very easy for us to inteprete scriptures to appeal to these cravings.

It's amazing the way many Christians exercise faith for mundane things. I wonder why their faith is not exercised like that for SOULWINNING . Why can't a man who is shy to preach in a bus begin to make confessions of faith and declare. " I have boldness to preach " but rather its on phones and plasma 3d television!

Joagbaje:
It's amazing the way many Christians exercise faith for mundane things. I wonder why their faith is not exercised like that for SOUL-WINNING . Why can't a man who is shy to preach in a bus begin to make confessions of faith and declare. " I have boldness to preach " but rather its on phones and plasma 3d television!

Welcome to the world of CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION so rampant in Charismatic Christianity which most of us are part of.We must realize how ephemeral 'things' really are.

Christ said ''....take heed, and beware of covetousness:for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.''(luke 12:15).Also John the beloved admonished us in 1john 2:15 thus ''love not the world,neither the things that are in the world.if any man love the world,the love of the father is not in him''

The craving for things deny a lot of people of their peace of mind.This is what all humans irrespective of religion know but their seems to be no let up in the craze.Contentment is great treasure if only humanity can stop and think.