Caveat:

This thread is not aimed at those whose minds have been resolutely made up about their religious beliefs (or dis-beliefs). It is primarily meant as an avenue for those who are seekers, those yet examining and cross-examining their own beliefs, to share their journey - tell us what they have learnt, and tell us what they are yet learning - no matter their religious (or non-religious) background. Kindly keep the conversation tolerant and respectful.


I hope we can all pick something up from each other no matter our religious or irreligious backgrounds.

To start with, I found out the Buddha never asserted anything. Rather, he denied things in a nihilistic way. This is why some of the Hindus called him a nastik, like an atheist, a nihilist. His belief was that the real will always be real, so you can go ahead and be skeptic. Deny everything that your soul cannot accept. Whatever is left will be more real, because you really have no power to destroy anything that is the truth. You can only end up destroying the world that YOU created in your mind (which is a good thing, as falsehood gives way to lies), and as you absorb the truth you eventually become enlightened.

To be enlightened is to be finally awake, and there are various levels of sleep. You are finally awakened when the 3 levels of sleep are broken, said the Buddha.

I believe each level of sleep is associated with a stage in your path as a seeker. Once while a Sufi Islamic mystic was talking about his own beliefs (I once talked about him) on the various stages of being a seeker, I suddenly saw the connection between it and the Buddha's teachings on levels of sleep. I will try to summarize it.

In a conscious religion (with minimal dogma) there are seekers and there are masters. The seekers are the ones in various levels of sleep, the master is now awake. The path of the seeker is: student, to disciple, to devotee. And it is all about consciousness: The student is unconscious but he knows there is consciousness somewhere. The disciple starts becoming conscious. The devotee is so conscious that he cannot be conscious of his consciousness (i.e. he does not pay attention to being conscious).

First level of sleep:
This is the sleep with things or objects. About 98% of human beings are on this level of sleep. We think and dream of objects which, on the global scale of life, are actually irrelevant. Your bank account, your house, car, clothes, shoes. You spend a lot of your time comparing prices of objects, discussing celebrities etc. You thus spend most of your life worrying about things - mere objects - which, when you are about to die, you'll gladly trade them all for an extra hour of time.

On this first level of sleep, sometimes people have experiences that make them re-consider their lives so they seek to turn to a religion to get some answers. If they manage to do this before they get distracted again by objects, they get onto the first level of The Seeker: the student. Most of the time, though, they get distracted again and get lost in life's objects.

The student begins accidentally. Perhaps he reads a book, or a post on Nairaland. Perhaps a friend talks to him and he becomes curious. But curiosity is so superficial; it cannot make you committed and devoted for a long journey. It is very momentary. The student is not ready, he is too unripe; he has to wander a little more, search a little more and be awakened a little more before he can become a disciple.

Second level of sleep:
This is called the sleep with ideas, or the sleep of the mind. People here are a little over 1% of the world and they are not concerned with objects. They don't think very much of things. They don't bother about clothes, they can live in a dump with no care in the world, they are content because they live in their minds. Many are artists, painters, novelists, poets, scientists, engineers, musicians (especially alternative music). They can go hungry or naked, or in poverty; they can change careers and travel all around the world seeking purpose but in their minds they keep working because their goal is to create a legacy, thinking "I may not be immortal but my work/novel/painting/science will be immortal". This is what they are attached to: intangible things. Many in their dying moments will grasp at hope: hope that it was not all in vain.

On this second level of sleep, students have finally realized that the world is rife with vanities and they seek something purer so they became disciples of the one who opened their eyes. Disciples are on the second level of the Seeker. They no longer care about objects. In religions, here is where you usually find most of the fanatics who tend to be violent or carefree, without a regard for higher principles. In some cases they change religions, and move from one to another (as if that was really the issue!? Religion is only a cloak for the heart and one cannot really run away from himself. Such a person only searches for a truth that he/she is not yet ready to find). They have little understanding but they have a great drive for seeking purpose. Their ego is huge because they can easily see that they are above mere students. Their knowledge puffs them up and it is usually the level of sleep that takes the longest time to wake up from. Most seekers spend the longest time here, because you will believe that immortality awaits you when you are through. But how can immortality arise from the death which awaits the mind you so hold dear? Everything is temporal.

Third level of sleep:
This is the sleep in the Self. The seekers are as the monks: they have put aside everything else to firmly plant their Self (minus the ego) in the path of enlightenment. People here are, maybe, about 2/3 of the less than 1% left (the other 1/3 being masters). They are neither concerned with objects nor with ideas. They do not seek to create a legacy but oddly they are the ones who tend to live such dedicated lives that the world always remembers them: an immortality that they did not seek. Many, even if they have not yet achieved enlightenment, have gotten so intertwined with enlightenment that they have utmost peace in their dying moments. After all, death brings one out of your sleep. Before death does, it is better to bring yourself out; then there will be no pain in death.

In this third level of sleep, disciples come to attain a certain maturity and they develop in understanding. They are no longer puffed up in their ego and imaginations. This is when they become devotees. Devotees are on the third and last level of the Seeker. This is where you usually find the most humble of teachers who place high regard on respect for humans and the rest of the the living creation, and for natural resources. They see themselves are caretakers of this earth, and they act accordingly. In place of pride and a puffed up heart, they have love.

Soon enough, and spontaneously, yet naturally, the devotee becomes master. He becomes fully awake and he knows within himself that he's now conscious. As suddenly as a devotee awakens, the devotee stage is yet the hardest one to wake up from, in a completion of enlightenment.

The devotee is mindful. Of enlightenment.

A Biblical example is the path of John son of Zebedee who began as a student while called to leave his wealthy fisherman family (focused on objects) to be a disciple, and as a disciple he asked Jesus to send fire from heaven on intolerant Samaritans who didn't grant them accommodation for being Jews (didn't they know who they were rejecting?!) and finally after Jesus left them he became a devotee, finally becoming such a revered master that he was known in the early church as the Apostle of Love.

I also recall a story about the Sufi mystic Junnaid.

A man came; he wanted to be a disciple. Junnaid looked at him for a long time. The man started feeling a little nervous: Why is he looking so intently and silently at me?

Finally Junnaid said, “To be a disciple is very difficult.”

The man said, “Then I am ready to be a devotee.”

Junnaid said, “That is even more difficult. The only thing that is not difficult here is to be a master.”

The man said, “If that is the case I am ready to be the master.”

Junnaid told his disciples and devotees, “This is a case of unconsciousness. He is not even a student, but the longing is to be a master if it is easier.”

The student wanted what was "easier", and this shows that he was just starting out on the path of a seeker. An "easier" option is relative to many things, one of which is the sacrifice of the ego's desires. The master who finds things easy, had already gone through intensive phases in which he has shed himself of ego, wickedness and unconsciousness. Maybe it never entirely goes away but if the majority of it is lost to one's heart, it gets easier to advance on the path of the seeker. The master, where this young man wants to start from, is by now beyond being affected by frivolities and temptations!

Any person who catches but a glimpse of reality, a glimpse of self, will first experience confusion and fear.

Then, he begins.

Deep Sight:
Any person who catches but a glimpse of reality, a glimpse of self, will first experience confusion and fear.

Then, he begins.

+1 This state of confusion, doubt, fear and uncertainty is like the raw material from which it all begins.

[size=2pt]Thought you were gone for good. Welcome back, man. Don't let em get to you. [/size]

Deep Sight:
Any person who catches but a glimpse of reality, a glimpse of self, will first experience confusion and fear.

Then, he begins.

Finally decided to show up? Some members missed your input.

The christianity of the Perfect Law of Liberty, which Paul preached and which I follow, has the same principles as the OP but different definitions and values. This christianity seeks the salvation of the ego rather than the denial of it, it seeks physical immortality rather than regarding death as the ultimate destination. In fact death is the ultimate enemy to be defeated. I stress here that I am not talking about the conventional/mainstream christianity that churches today teach. Conventional christianity is not in accordance to what Paul taught, the messages and meanings of Paul has been long lost after the Catholic institution absorbed christianity and made it a state institution, using the christian brand to propagate it's pagan doctrines and re-establishment of the Laws of Moses as christian, doctrine which forms all the values that mainstream christianity and humanity in general extols today.

So while eastern religions such as the OP, (actually all religions), strive for the immortality of the soul/spirit/abstract consciousness, the Law of Liberty(Paul's version of christianity) on the other hand strives for the immortality of the body. To achieve this ultimate immortality, we must start with a state of sinlessness. The state of sinlessness is the repentance from the Law of Moses. The Laws of Moses is the value system that defines sin and condemnation and death. So the first step in True christianity is the knowledge that this Law has been abolished through christ's death(ie: Christ was the personification of the law, thus his death is the death of the Law ) and you should hence disregard it's definitions and commandments. You should fear no sin because you have been set free from the laws of Moses, the definer of sin and the accuser and condemner of your thoughts and actions. The laws that commands: "don't look..", "don't speak..", "don't touch..", "don't eat..", etc, you get the gist nah . So just as God is above the Law(sin), you the believer are also above the same law. You have the liberty to look, to speak, to think, to eat the things you were forbidden by this law from doing without feeling guilty in your conscience that you'd done something against the divine laws. You have become equal to god by having the same sinless conscience as God. This is the starting point of True christianity.

when the seeker is ready, the master appears

@okeyxyz:

Thanks for your contribution. Can you clarify some things?

This christianity seeks the salvation of the ego rather than the denial of it

Salvation of the ego: does this mean preservation or protection of the ego? Can you expatiate on this please?

the Law of Liberty(Paul's version of christianity) on the other hand strives for the immortality of the body

This is really interesting. Immortality of the body, as in to live forever physically in one lifetime?

On the path of the seeker, he must learn patience. Patience is the greatest religious quality.

Patience includes hope, peace and trust. If you have good doses of patience almost nothing else is needed. Everything else will fall into place.

What is impatience like? It is like a blind stranger - his first time visiting the village, stumbling on his blistered feet - arguing with a seasoned old villager who can see clearly, about the path to the village well. There are orders in the universe, patterns, principles, eternal rules and laws which respect nobody at all. These are steadfast, but sometimes we try to bypass them. For those of us who believe in God, we believe God placed these there. They are like the seasoned old villager that knows the path along which our thirsts will be quenched. If we are patient, we will let them lead us gently to the well. They may seem to waste time, and we may seem to feel we know shortcuts (that are only likely to cut us short) but they know the sure paths. And in time, all will be justified. Impatience never brings any good yield.

Patience is the most God-like trait. Even love is (always is, and truly is) patient.

InesQor: @okeyxyz:

Thanks for your contribution. Can you clarify some things?


Salvation of the ego: does this mean preservation or protection of the ego? Can you expatiate on this please?

It's simple actually, True Christian doctrines teaches you to love yourself first, and then you can love somebody else. Like the commandment states: "Love your neigbour as yourself...". It is impossible to give what you do not have. So whatever you pass on to somebody else must be what you have actually heard, learnt and handled yourself and have found to be profitable for yourself. So when we say "we deny ourselves...", we are actually denying what is unprofitable and imbibing that which is good and pleasurable(whether in an abstract/intellectual, emotional or sensual/physical manner). Bottom line, All things created are meant to be used for our own(the self) learning and profit, there is no sin in nature because the law of Moses is abolished, and we know that the law of Moses does nothing but to accuse us(the self/ego) of being sinful for doing things that we are designed for, ie: abstract/intellectual and sensual knowledge including food, drink, beauty, sex, all forms of knowledge, creativity, etc. So the abolishing of the Law of Moses takes away that guilty conscience that gives the self/ego a bad reputation.

This is really interesting. Immortality of the body, as in to live forever physically in one lifetime?

Ultimately, we are meant to be immortal. But mainstream christianity do not teach this because they no longer believe it. We are so used to death that we disregard all scriptural references to physical immortality and rehash them as spiritual immortality. Christ taught a prayer "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven...", we already know that that spiritual things/entities are immortal, the will of God therefore is that these spiritual principles be established in the real world and that they endure just like they endure in the spirit realm. Haven't you ever wondered why the spirit world/entities are obsessed with man? They seem to be battling for possession/rulership of man? Man really is the ultimate prize and the universe does revolve around us. We are not as insignificant in this universe, as secular/scientific wisdom teaches. Just as spirit entities are making efforts to possess man and become human, likewise God himself is going to become and establish himself as human, and it shall be forever.

Thanks for the detailed explanation @okeyxyz

You can't be anymore enlightened when your mind is already made up about believing a god, neither can you be a seeker when you think your god and his book has all the answer.

Get your points straight.

Consider that the fire Prometheus stole from the Gods was actually Kundalini fire, and he gave it to the people so they could become Gods.

@ InesQor: Since you say seeker, and state you want people who aren't fully convinced of their stance, religious or not, I think I will once more summarize thoughts on my seeking.

I this k everyone is born a seeker, in that we all have the capacity to, and want to know the truth about life and Nature in general. So any stance is IMO a result of that. Even if you don't believe such, it's likely because there is a truth about life you hold works. I was born in a pagan home and from a young age really had little issue with religions, mostly curious about them, and liked them since the concept of God seemed reasonable to me. Religious arguments intrigued me since that was what I was born into, early memories of me at about 5 involved my Dad arguing seriously with Christians, including some extended family members who were. Some thoughts gleaned from such stuck. One very telling one was when he said all religions, his inclusive, were ways to God, he suggested that he believed God doesn't discriminate between religions. Later on I got to know Christianity up-front through Jehovah's Witnesses whom my Dad allowed despite the religious difference. Later became Christian, paid my dues, questions shelved whilst living the faith, then philosophy comes along in school.

As I recall, I didn't bother as such over atheists when first joining Nairaland which played a role in my seeking. In fact, I first talked in the Sports and Food section before exploring the Religion section. I had encountered snippets of atheists thought as in 'God is dead' and even the definition but it never stuck. As it were, I just shelved it in a recess of my mind and I think encountering it on this site brought latent thoughts on it back. For one, since they didn't accept the Bible I decided it pointless to use it in argument, even Christians who did that to then-pagan, now-Christian father met a brick wall. Their arguments did give me a reason to pause to articulate as best as I could why I believed what I did and of course, spring questions, some I asked whilst a young child new to Christianity, some I didn't think of. Reading on it made me ask questions and think more on the subject of God amidst others too eg moral absolutes, and in that state I decided I was a Christian pantheist whereby I then saw God being understood differently by all religions but still a Christian and thought Christianity was the best way to understand God.

My switch to deism was this year, same with atheism, though the latter is but me posturing. The immediate reason was simple, after reading 'Common Sense' the one by Jean Meslier, I decided the concept of Jesus' crucifixion didn't make sense, with that came the simple fact that I had rejected the faith. The cause of that was in part spurred by sustained interest in atheism and its wider implications after a TED talk by Richard Dawkins, which quite ironically, was after watching a TED talk by Billy Graham. Why I chose deism I have previously explained and won't repeat here. Why I'm still seeking is still the same as I told Ihedinobi when somebody was dancing azonto over my new stance: I want to be more informed on other religions or otherwise before choosing a position. Even at that, change is still possible. I recall sitting with my Dad whilst on the path of accepting Christ, still a small boy, recall telling Him why I thought his paganism was wrong and Christianity right. I recall him calling me a fool and telling me I knew little: and the irony watching him wake up one day to tell us he had accepted Christ. Why atheism ? My way of exploring it more, I've done same for paganism and Islam, even a few other religions, my Dad had a number of books from other faiths including Grail, Bahai faith and Christian Science, but I didn't talk about them here.

My seeking is in my way of finding out truth and purpose in this life. And I would choose my present path. If you as a Christian say I backslid, I'll admit. Give you kudos for sticking to your gun but call you close-minded if I deem you the type to strung in the religion to see its flaws, not the people only, but in every aspect, including its doctrines and its God. 'Nuff said for now.

^^^^
. That was so anti-climatic.

aManFromMars: ^^^^
. That was so anti-climatic.

First of all, I didn't write it to please you or anyone else, that is not my style: I told it as I see it, Simple.

Uyi Iredia:

First of all, I didn't write it to please you or anyone else, that is not my style: I told it as I see it, Simple.

Why so serious?

Chill.

aManFromMars:
Why so serious?

Chill.

I'm chilling. That's me, or at least, what I want me to be . . . chilling.

Err, Uyi, you sound less like someone seeking than someone confused (no offence intended).

Point of order, if someone sticks to his guns it doesnt mean the person is close minded. A person is close minded if he sticks to his position even when he has been shown the weakness of that position. Particularly so, if he rejects a contrary position outright without due consideration.

I see no reason why you should jump from islam to paganism to flower worship etc. If you are looking for God, look within.

Your confusion (as I call it) has led to a really wild fluctuation and its hard to take you very seriously. One minute you are insulting people over evolution, the next you are accepting it. One minute you are a christian, then you are a deist then an atheist. Its dizzying. I hope next you are not going to do another "I have renounced atheism thread".

By your arguments before now and your declaring yourself atheist, I should be correct when I say that you currently believe there is no God. Im sure this is not true though (even if you say it is). Anyway moving on . . .

Seeking doesnt necessarily mean trying everything on the menu. Doing that can cause a lot of sh1t.

Again, none of this is meant to insult and I hope you dont take it that way.

jayriginal: Err, Uyi, you sound less like someone seeking than someone confused (no offence intended).

Point of order, if someone sticks to his guns it doesnt mean the person is close minded. A person is close minded if he sticks to his position even when he has been shown the weakness of that position. Particularly so, if he rejects a contrary position outright without due consideration.

I see no reason why you should jump from islam to paganism to flower worship etc. If you are looking for God, look within.

Your confusion (as I call it) has led to a really wild fluctuation and its hard to take you very seriously. One minute you are insulting people over evolution, the next you are accepting it. One minute you are a christian, then you are a deist then an atheist. Its dizzying. I hope next you are not going to do another "I have renounced atheism thread".

By your arguments before now and your declaring yourself atheist, I should be correct when I say that you currently believe there is no God. Im sure this is not true though (even if you say it is). Anyway moving on . . .

Seeking doesnt necessarily mean trying everything on the menu. Doing that can cause a lot of sh1t.

Again, none of this is meant to insult and I hope you dont take it that way.

Noted.

Uyi Iredia:

Noted.

Cool.

jayriginal: Err, Uyi, you sound less like someone seeking than someone confused (no offence intended).

Point of order, if someone sticks to his guns it doesnt mean the person is close minded. A person is close minded if he sticks to his position even when he has been shown the weakness of that position. Particularly so, if he rejects a contrary position outright without due consideration.

I see no reason why you should jump from islam to paganism to flower worship etc. If you are looking for God, look within.

Your confusion (as I call it) has led to a really wild fluctuation and its hard to take you very seriously. One minute you are insulting people over evolution, the next you are accepting it. One minute you are a christian, then you are a deist then an atheist. Its dizzying. I hope next you are not going to do another "I have renounced atheism thread".

By your arguments before now and your declaring yourself atheist, I should be correct when I say that you currently believe there is no God. Im sure this is not true though (even if you say it is). Anyway moving on . . .

Seeking doesnt necessarily mean trying everything on the menu. Doing that can cause a lot of sh1t.

Again, none of this is meant to insult and I hope you dont take it that way.

@bold: because god is really no where, but only your imaginations can create such, so you look within...

Nice one

@jayriginal & Uyi Iredia
Sometimes I say I toyed with atheism briefly but sometimes I wonder if that's really true because in retrospect it seems what really happened was that my level of doubt got intensely strong. I am recently convinced that the farthest extents I've ever been are Christian (new creation) fundie to simply Theist to Agnostic. I'm currently somewhere between the first 2 but much closer to Theist, almost overlapping it I'd say.

This is one question I ponder on, that makes me accept such classifications as Dawkin's scale: When exactly do you say someone "becomes" Atheist? What if his/her doubt only became so strong, stronger than was ever experienced?

InesQor: Nice one

@jayriginal & Uyi Iredia
Sometimes I say I toyed with atheism briefly but sometimes I wonder if that's really true because in retrospect it seems what really happened was that my level of doubt got intensely strong. I am recently convinced that the farthest extents I've ever been are Christian (new creation) fundie to simply Theist to Agnostic. I'm currently somewhere between the first 2 but much closer to Theist, almost overlapping it I'd say.

This is one question I ponder on, that makes me accept such classifications as Dawkin's scale: When exactly do you say someone "becomes" Atheist? What if his/her doubt only became so strong, stronger than was ever experienced?

when you realize gods does not have to exist for nature to be here...

ooman:

when you realize gods does not have to exist for nature to be here...

Agnostics are at the same point of realization though.

InesQor:
Agnostics are at the same point of realization though.

yep, they are doubting atheists!

Based on classifications in the OP and my daily experiences I think I'm still in the second level of sleep. I have about no care for objects and trivial issues of life, and I thrive on art, science and ideas. But sometimes this gets the better of me in my walk of Love, as I can tend to be harsh towards those who just can't seem to see life beyond objects.

InesQor: Based on classifications in the OP and my daily experiences I think I'm still in the second level of sleep. I have about no care for objects and trivial issues of life, and I thrive on art, science and ideas. But sometimes this gets the better of me in my walk of Love, as I can tend to be harsh towards those who just can't seem to see life beyond objects.

being a seeker means having an open mind, not having it already filled up with ancient ideas. free your mind and you will find your way soon....into atheism....

ooman:

being a seeker means having an open mind, not having it already filled up with ancient ideas. free your mind and you will find your way soon....into atheism....

Atheism is a more ancient idea than Christianity so you're just shooting yourself in the foot