Take a look at the work of the great creator. Satan could not have done better.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6CjeF51CfE&feature=related

Enjoy?

How is God responsible for the birth defects shown in the video?

m_nwankwo:

How is God responsible for the birth defects shown in the video?

Who's responsible for creating humans?

huxley:

Who's responsible for creating humans?

Is the occurence of mutation in the human genes the same as the creation of the human body?

m_nwankwo:

Is the occurence of mutation in the human genes the same as the creation of the human body?

Can a non-created, non-designed entity result from a created and designed entity?

This Huxley pesin.

What is chasing you ni??

God's design is perfect.

Take it or leave it ooooh!

How does deleterious mutations arise in the human genes?

m_nwankwo:

How does deleterious mutations arise in the human genes?

Why do "deleterious mutations" exist at all, rather that not existing?. Would it have been a better thing for mankind if these deleterious mutations had not been made to exist?

huxley:


Why do "deleterious mutations" exist at all, rather that not existing?. Would it have been a better thing for mankind if these deleterious mutations had not been made to exist?

Have you evidence that the deleterious mutation existed in the first human body?

m_nwankwo:

Have you evidence that the deleterious mutation existed in the first human body?

Let's assume I said that (which I did not), the fact that they exist now, means there exist. How did they come to exist? Was it an intentional process or an accidental one?

I think i'll leave you guys to bash this one out. I'm not getting involved.

huxley:

Let's assume I said that (which I did not), the fact that they exist now, means there exist. How did they come to exist? Was it an intentional process or an accidental one?

I did not say that you said so. I am sorry if it reads as to imply that you said so. I just asked a question. The origin of the deleterious mutations can be scientifically explored   if the genes of the first human inhabitants of the earth (first Adams and Eves) are profilled. Unfortunately, there are no known existing specimen for such profiling.

m_nwankwo:

I did not say that you said so. I am sorry if it reads as to imply that you said so. I just asked a question. The origin of the deleterious mutations can be scientifically explored if the genes of the first human inhabitants of the earth (first Adams and Eves) are profilled. Unfortunately, there are no known existing specimen for such profiling.

Raises an interesting question - Why would you want to explore this with science? What is special about science that you think it is the appropriate tool to investigate this? Is science capable of revealing the truth about the origins of such mutations?

huxley:

Raises an interesting question - Why would you want to explore this with science? What is special about science that you think it is the appropriate tool to investigate this? Is science capable of revealing the truth about the origins of such mutations?

Did I touch a sore point with this comment?

There are many reasons that contribute to those "perfect designs".

SeanT21:

There are many reasons that contribute to those "perfect designs".

Would you care to share them with us?

huxley:


Would you care to share them with us?

Having Sex with your siblings
Genes complications
Drugs during pregnancy and more

@Huxley: Did you har what the Indian Doctor said, even before the saw the little girl, with a parasitic twin? The Doctor said that No great discovery in Science can keep the last man on earth alive. I did not have to see the poor child to know that God designs what is perfect.

The poor girl is a sign for us who have healthy children to be thankful. She is a sign to us all that having normal children is not by our power, but by the Will of the almighty. Do not forget that her village people are taking her as a "god!" They are not concern that she is having a hard life. To them she is a reincarnation of their object of worship. It tells you that one man's poison may be another man's potion, concortion of happiness.

The Indian community, the Doctor is from a camp who sees her as abnormal and the very reason he volunteered to help. While the other gropu of the sameindian people, the uneducated villagers sees her as a "god!" We should not forget that God has used her to serve as a sign for us parents with normal children to thank Him. She serves the same purpose as a very very poor person may serve in the eye of the wealthy.

Did you pay attention that her 8 limbs did not bring her any advantage over the normal and usually expected 4 limbs person? She has the same difficulty as a child who has less that 4 limbs of 2 arms and two legs. Except that in her case the degree of difficulty and inefficiency is not the same as that of the less than 4 limbs person. What can be inferred from al of this, is that the Creator's perfect creation median or normal creation is the best. It has the optimum and satisfying pleasantness and goodliness. That girl is actually an endictment against the evolutionist and their evolutionary concept.

huxley:

Did I touch a sore point with this comment?

You did not torch a sore point. Indeed there is no sore point.

huxley:

Raises an interesting question - Why would you want to explore this with science? What is special about science that you think it is the appropriate tool to investigate this? Is science capable of revealing the truth about the origins of such mutations?

I use science because that is the only thing you seem to accept. Why should I give a spiritual evidence when you do not believe in the existence of spiritual things. My intention is to discuss with you on your own terms. Besides, I work with genes. Science can analyse physical things and since the blue print of physical or biological life is encoded in our genes, it is possible to resolve this question of the the physical origin of mutations if the required specimens are available. If one can get DNA from the first Adam or Eve, several generations after them down to the present living humans, a profile of all genome of all these samples will provide enough evidence wheather or not these deleterious mutations were present in the first adam and eve or that they were acquired in the course of time. If these mutations are not present in the first human inhabitants of the earth, then your apparent linking of birth defects to the creator will be bazeless. Spiritually, I know that God created the human body without defects and all birth at that time were painless and the children were healthy. Indeed at that time there are no diseases. Diseases and deleterious mutations came into existence with the introduction of sin by man, that is with the misapplication of the neutral power of God by man, an abuse of his God given free will. These are spiritual assertions and you will not believe it. That is why I followed the part of scientific evidence. I can convincely say that there is no scientific evidence to show that these deleterious mutations were present in the first human inhabitants of the earth. There is no specimen available for such genetic profiling. Thanks.

m_nwankwo:

You did not torch a sore point. Indeed there is no sore point.

Hello m_nwankwo. Nice to see you back. BTW, pardon my little jibe about the "sore point". I am just a little mischievous sometimes.

m_nwankwo:

I use science because that is the only thing you seem to accept. Why should I give a spiritual evidence when you do not believe in the existence of spiritual things. My intention is to discuss with you on your own terms. Besides, I work with genes.

Is there such a thing as Spiritual Evidence, or is that an oxymoron ? If there is, can one lay Spiritual Evidence side-by-side factual (Scientific ) Evidence and compare them for points of correspondence? I would like to see some examples of Spiritual Evidence, if you may.

Since you work with genes, what is you explanation for the some apes having 23 pairs of chromosomes but humans having only 22 pairs, with Chromosome number 2 being a fusion of two previously single chromosomes?

m_nwankwo:

Science can analyse physical things and since the blue print of physical or biological life is encoded in our genes, it is possible to resolve this question of the the physical origin of mutations if the required specimens are available. If one can get DNA from the first Adam or Eve, several generations after them down to the present living humans, a profile of all genome of all these samples will provide enough evidence wheather or not these deleterious mutations were present in the first adam and eve or that they were acquired in the course of time. If these mutations are not present in the first human inhabitants of the earth, then your apparent linking of birth defects to the creator will be bazeless.

The fact is could god have created living things without the capability of mutation? Yes or NO?

BTW, mutation simply means change and by that definition there do not have to have been there from the start in your Adam and Eve. The change may not have been there from the start, BUT they had the ability to change. Why did god not put a stop to that ability to change?

Mutations, by their nature are random and there is no knowing in advance whether the mutation will be beneficial or deleterious. There just happen and Natural Selection works of the outcome of the mutation. Over many successive generation if the mutation did confer an advantage, natural selection drive the organism in the direction of that advantage.

I am currently in the middle of reading a good book about all this, called Darwinian Detectives, by Norman A Johnson.
http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Detectives-Revealing-Natural-History/dp/0195306759/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216816132&sr=8-1

If you can grab hold of a copy, you will not be disappointed.

BTW, how long ago did Adam & Eve live? Are you suggesting that there was no diseases, death before Adam&Eve committed their sin? What accounts for the many billion of species that have gone extinct presumably before A&E? For your theory to hold any water A&E would have to have been the first creatures on earth, or near-abouts. Without going too far into the past, I would like to see evidence that humans lived before dinosaurs.

m_nwankwo:

Spiritually, I know that God created the human body without defects and all birth at that time were painless and the children were healthy. Indeed at that time there are no diseases. Diseases and deleterious mutations came into existence with the introduction of sin by man, that is with the misapplication of the neutral power of God by man, an abuse of his God given free will.

Where is your evidence for that statement? How did you come to know that? Spiritual and/or Scientific evidence will be much appreciated.

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Hello m_nwankwo.  Nice to see you back.  BTW, pardon my little jibe about the "sore point".  I am just a little mischievous sometimes.

Thanks

Is there such a thing as Spiritual Evidence, or is that an oxymoron ?  If there is, can one lay Spiritual Evidence side-by-side factual (Scientific ) Evidence and compare them for points of correspondence?  I would like to see some examples of Spiritual Evidence, if you may

Yes, there is spiritual evidence. A spiritual evidence is obtained with the faculties of the spirit. You cannot compare spiritual evidence with scientific evidence since the former is percieved with the faculties of the spirit while the later is with the faculties of the brain. Different faculties are in play. However it is possible for the spirit to work with the brain.

Since you work with genes, what is you explanation for the some apes having 23 pairs of chromosomes but humans having only 22 pairs, with Chromosome number 2 being a fusion of two previously single chromosomes?

I guess it is a typo error on your part. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosome while apes have 24 pairs. The possible explanation on why the human karyotype is one chromosome pair less than that of the apes is because human chromosome 2 probably arose out of telomeric fusion, that is end to end fusion of two "ancestral chromosome"

The fact is could god have created living things without the capability of mutation?  Yes or NO?

God created and programmed the human genes to undergo only helpful changes in so far as man follows the creators program.

BTW,  mutation simply means change and by that definition there do not have to have been there from the start in your Adam and Eve.  The change may not have been there from the start, BUT they had the ability to change. Why did god not put a stop to that ability to change?

Thanks for acknowledging that it is an option that the deleterious mutations that result in birth defects may have not been there from the start. Deletrious mutation came into existence as a result of sin, that is misapplication of the neutal power of God. God does not stop the mutations because he gave man free will.

Mutations, by their nature are random and there is no knowing in advance whether the mutation will be beneficial or deleterious. There just happen and Natural Selection works of the outcome of the mutation. Over many successive generation if the mutation did confer an advantage, natural selection drive the organism in the direction of that advantage

Obedience to the program of God would have ensured that the deleterious mutations are not generated in the first place and neither will the micro/macro enviroment that favours there selection exist too.

I am currently in the middle of reading a good book about all this, called Darwinian Detectives, by Norman A Johnson.
http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Detectives-Revealing-Natural-History/dp/0195306759/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216816132&sr=8-1

If you can grab hold of a copy, you will not be disappointed.

Thanks for recommending the book. I will grap a copy myself.


BTW, how long ago did Adam & Eve live? Are you suggesting that there was no diseases, death before Adam&Eve committed their sin?  What accounts for the many billion of species that have gone extinct presumably before A&E?  For your theory to hold any water  A&E would have to have been the first creatures on earth, or near-abouts. Without going too far into the past, I would like to see evidence that humans lived before dinosaurs.

I believe that humans first arrived on earth about 2-3.5 million years ago. Science so far has traced the origin of modern humans to about 150000 to 200000 years ago. Science is a working progress and I am convident that in future it will find evidence that mankind has been opn earth longer than 200000 years. The existence of the dinosaurs predates that of humans.


Where is your evidence for that statement?  How did you come to know that?  Spiritual and/or Scientific evidence will be much apprecia

I have no scientific evidence at the moment. However as I said above, I believe that uninhabitable regions of the earth like the poles, under the oceans, the desearts will in future be explored by science and civilizations lying beneath them will be unearthed. Then the scientific evidence will come. Sure I can give you spiritual evidence but you will probably regard them as myths and legends since it is not yet possible for you to see, hear, feel, torch etc with the faculties of your spirit. I guess I will refrain form giving such spiritual evidence for now. Thanks again.

@M_nwankwo: In your mind, Science and religion, the belief in God are in congruent. In Islam, science is within the essence of belief in God. Allah refers to many so called science disciplines in the Qur'an. Read it. Get yourself a Qur'an and educate yourself. If God did not create deseases, who created it and what do you thing getting old is, which eventually result in death? Infact what do you think death is, since no one wants to die? Can you imagine if there is no check and balance, eg death in the equation of mankind, what will the population be by now, how will mankind be judged in the day of judgement, since everyone will say: "I have not finish my deeds, yet. The best are yet to come!?" This is for us who belief in being raised up after death and be judged on our belief and deeds.

Thanks my brother Olabowale, May Almighty God reward you for the great works. For those who care to know, Quran clear it all. Some don't even know their existence is part of God perfect design. If He had willed it, they could have come down from the womb dead. God is acting according to His name. THE CREATOR, create whatever He likes.

olabowale:

@M_nwankwo: In your mind, Science and religion, the belief in God are in congruent. In Islam, science is within the essence of belief in God. Allah refers to many so called science disciplines in the Qur'an. Read it. Get yourself a Qur'an and educate yourself. If God did not create deseases, who created it and what do you thing getting old is, which eventually result in death? Infact what do you think death is, since no one wants to die? Can you imagine if there is no check and balance, eg death in the equation of mankind, what will the population be by now, how will mankind be judged in the day of judgement, since everyone will say: "I have not finish my deeds, yet. The best are yet to come!?" This is for us who belief in being raised up after death and be judged on our belief and deeds.

 
                                                                 

God did not create diseases. Which earthly father will create diseases for his children. Yet we expect God to create diseases for his creatures. God is perfect , God is Love. The idea that God created diseases negates the nature of God. Diseases came into existence as a result of the fall of man, that is as a result of sin. Getting old is a natural process. At the  time when we have not sinned, that is, before the fall of man, there were no diseases and a 200 year old man of that time has the body of a very fit and healthy 30 year old of today. People live for more than  200 years old without any illness or disease. Death is simply the discarding of the physical body by the human soul or more correctly the human spirit. It is not a punishment but simply a transition. Thus even before the fall of man, when sin and diseases have not entered the world, human beings in flesh still die. The difference though is that their life span is in hundreds of years. In future when the fall of man is eradicated by God, that paradisical state will exist on earth again and humans will live again for centuries without diseases and sins.  Each individual is continually judjed by the laws of God wheather he is in the flesh or not.

@m_nwankwo

The idea that God created diseases negates the nature of God. Diseases came into existence as a result of the fall of man, that is as a result of sin

Are you telling us that God has the same nature as humanbeing? Where the diseases came from? If not God, who? Kindly provide more proofs. any ref. to back your claim?

Brother Nwanwo, the purpose of life is to pass the many many tests that we must undergo during our sojourn here on this earth. If we pass these examinations or trials, then there will be eternal rewards, but woe to us if we should fail them. Among the many possible tests, one of the examinations that we can be tested with is our health. Either good or bad is from God. Similar to this is poverty and wealth. God made us to understand It is He who is our Creator and it is He in His Perfection and Wisdom (as well as with all His other attributes) who 'runs the show'. Absolutely nothing can occur without His permission. When He, in His perfect wisdom, decrees good health for us, then we will be healthy. When He in His perfect wisdom decrees ill health for us, then we will suffer from illness. Good health is truly a wonderful blessing and we should be grateful when God decrees that for us. It is an honour. But then ill health is also a marvellous blessing. If a sick person can still remain grateful to God through the course of his or her sufferings, trials and tests of illness, and still not oppose his or her destiny and endure patiently, then there will be many rewards and recompenses for them. Their sufferings will be rewarded with spiritual honours and gifts of forgiveness. Therefore, we shouldn't be wayward about God's creations. He designs everything.

littleb:

@m_nwankwo
Are you telling us that God has the same nature as humanbeing? Where the diseases came from? If not God, who? Kindly provide more proofs. any ref. to back your claim?

I wonder where you draw the inference that I am telling you that "God has the  same nature of human beings" I have already said in all my posts that misapplication of the power of God led to diseases. Ionising radiations for instance is a gradation of the power of God. In itself, these ionizaing radiations are neutral but its application by man can be good or bad. Applied properly it will lead to biomedical imaging as is evident in X-rays, CT scans etc. Apllied wrongly or overexposure it will result in cancers. I will leave out for the moment an exploration of the germ theory of diseases. Now, provide evidence that God created diseases.

littleb:

Brother Nwanwo, the purpose of life is to pass the many many tests that we must undergo during our sojourn here on this earth. If we pass these examinations or trials, then there will be eternal rewards, but woe to us if we should fail them. Among the many possible tests, one of the examinations that we can be tested with is our health. Either good or bad is from God. Similar to this is poverty and wealth. God made us to understand It is He who is our Creator and it is He in His Perfection and Wisdom (as well as with all His other attributes) who 'runs the show'. Absolutely nothing can occur without His permission. When He, in His perfect wisdom, decrees good health for us, then we will be healthy. When He in His perfect wisdom decrees ill health for us, then we will suffer from illness. Good health is truly a wonderful blessing and we should be grateful when God decrees that for us. It is an honour. But then ill health is also a marvellous blessing. If a sick person can still remain grateful to God through the course of his or her sufferings, trials and tests of illness, and still not oppose his or her destiny and endure patiently, then there will be many rewards and recompenses for them. Their sufferings will be rewarded with spiritual honours and gifts of forgiveness. Therefore, we shouldn't be wayward about God's creations. He designs everything.

How can a perfect God create diseases. In your conception, god will set trials to know those who will pass. If god does that, what will satan do. I wonder. A god that is both good and evil, a god that create both ill health and health is not the creator, the Almighty God. How can the same god be capable of good and capable of evil.

@M_Nwankwo:

Death is simply the discarding of the physical body by the human soul or more correctly the human spirit. It is not a punishment but simply a transition. Thus even before the fall of man, when sin and diseases have not entered the world, human beings in flesh still die.

Could you tell us, from your Bible or grail message, when was it that man died before the man fell, before sin and diseases entered into human's world? How many generation of man perished before this human actually fell, sinned and diseased?

I wonder if you know that not to many people want to die? And by the way when grandpa or dad get sick, who made them, their dead forebearers or the everliving God? Is not tiredness even aform of mild disease, since no one wants to miss any happenings?

And does diseases craeted by the God to give natural termination process to humans, who are imperfect beings, therefore makes God imperfect, therefore? Do you believe in Hellfire? Rather do you think that a person who does evil should be punished? Will God be evil, when He punishes those who deserve to be punish? Do you believe in Paradise, the exact opposite of Hell? Why do you think they exist? Is there any contradiction in the purpose of God creating man, since He wills to judge us?

olabowale:

@M_Nwankwo:
Could you tell us, from your Bible or grail message, when was it that man died before the man fell, before sin and diseases entered into human's world? How many generation of man perished before this human actually fell, sinned and diseased?

I wonder if you know that not to many people want to die? And by the way when grandpa or dad get sick, who made them, their dead forebearers or the everliving God? Is not tiredness even aform of mild disease, since no one wants to miss any happenings?

And does diseases craeted by the God to give natural termination process to humans, who are imperfect beings, therefore makes God imperfect, therefore? Do you believe in Hellfire? Rather do you think that a person who does evil should be punished? Will God be evil, when He punishes those who deserve to be punish? Do you believe in Paradise, the exact opposite of Hell? Why do you think they exist? Is there any contradiction in the purpose of God creating man, since He wills to judge us?

Sir, first undersand my posts. My premise is that God did not create diseases. Before the fall of man, humans die at the expiration of their life span which at that time runs into centuries. Thus death is not equivalent to illness. Even today, some very old men in their 90+ or 100+ die and on post motem, their is no evidence of disease. The physical body like other species in the material creation is subject to birth, growth, adolencence, adulthood, old age, death, decay and transition to a new birth. Thus death at that paradisical time was simply a transition into other worlds and not as a result of illness. I have in many threads in this forum offered my perceptions on paradise, hell, world judjement etc. You can go to the threads on these topics and you will find my postings. There is no point in repeating what I have previously said. Besides hell was not created by God but was formed by misapplication of the power of God by man. Hell is therefore a human institution, not the work of God. Thanks.

@M_Nwankwo: I know that you do not believe in everything in the Bible, but probably believe in what Jesus said to sothe your idae of Grail Message?

Thus death is not equivalent to illness.

Is it not in the bible that Jesus is reported to have said that the wages of SIN is DEATH?

Unfortunately, you can not substantiate with any certain knowledge that death is not a disease. Or can you? Do you know how many diseases yet to be classified, named or discovered by the limited knowledge of man?

If Moses said something, do you think you have the knowledge to disprove him, since he was a prophet and messenger and you are not? Have you heard of the expression of "disease of the heart?" Could you tell us if in all the cases the heart is diseases, in the form of what we all know disease to be? Could it not be spiritual disease that is being expresses in this form, in some cases?

I hereby submitted to you that Muhammad bin Abdallah (as) stated that every disease has a cure (you may not have discovered it yet for a particular disease), the only one disease that does not have a cure is death.

Please if you have a man that dies and no known disease is found when an autopsy is performed, it does not mean that an unknown disease did not affect him. A good example of an unknown disease, since you do not classify it as a disease is death. Death no human being will escape it. A man was just telling me this afternoon that that is the thing that he is forced to do now. He then added that belief in God is not even forced on him, he had just to make a choice. But death, you have no choice in it at all. Have you ever had a choice in getting a disease, falling sick with excuciating pain? No one wishes it.