How do you know who is (or was)  a Christian  or a Muslim?



If someone spent a good portion of their life living as a Christian (or Muslim) and then later transitions to a different position, does that mean that they were never truly a Christian (or Muslim)?

I hear this argument a lot from Christians, who claim that people who have moved away from Christianity were never truly Christians in the first place.  The have been many prominent Christian ministers, people who dedicated decades of their lives "serving god", only to transition to different positions and abandon christianity.  Such have been;

Dan Barker
Charles Templeton
John Loftus
Holden
Joseph McGabe
etc,
etc,

Were these people never truly Christians?  They all report their sincerity in their dedication fo their god whilst as Christians.  So although they may have tried their best, god never really opened up to them, unbeknown to them.  So they were living under the delusion that they were true Christians.

How many sincere Christians (or Muslims) today are living under the delusion that they are Christian, when deep down, god has not accepted them.  Are these the one who are at risk of leaving the faith?


Supposing you were to find out tomorrow that your Pastor has converted to a different position.  Does that mean he/she was never a Christian?

See [url=http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~slocks/decon.html] here [/url]  for a number of ex-christian ministers and other ex-christians and why they left christianity.

Most christian communities have this doctrine or teaching of backsliding (or losing/diminishing one faith). Can one lose something that one never really had in the first place? Can one backslide if one was never in the exhaulted heights of faith?

As far as am concerned, those who move from church to church, mosque to church, mu.slim to christian, or from christian to chrsitian  and so on are desperately looking for the truth (Jesus)

May kelly:


As far as am concerned, those who move from church to church, mosque to church, mu.slim to christian, or from christian to chrsitian and so on are desperately looking for the truth (Jesus)

I thought Jesus said, "Whenever two or more people are gather in my name, I am amongst them". So why would one not find Jesus in one church when he is supposed to be in all churches?

By the way, it would be interesting if you attempted to answer some of the questions I posed. C'mon give them a try

Yeah, May Kelly, give them a try as Huxley the agitator is agitating that you do. lol. I love this disbelieving guy called Huxley. He is crazy like a fox! Riteon, brother man.

olabowale:

Yeah, May Kelly, give them a try as Huxley the agitator is agitating that you do. lol. I love this disbelieving guy called Huxley. He is crazy like a fox! Riteon, brother man.

Huxley laughed

Dear @huxley,

I wonder what the purpose of this thread actually is - whether in spirit it was truly aimed at understanding Christianity by knowing who a Christian or Muslim is; or to make a case for conversions from those positions to atheism. The thing that often makes me sit back and marvel at this drama is man's proclivity to revel in statistics of such nature. One could quote statistics of conversions, deconversions, interconversions, reconversions, or any other metanoia out there. But is that really the issue at the end of the day?

Just about the time I started asking serious questions in my former religion, indeed I came across a lot of people who had converted from atheism to Christianity as well as left Islam and became atheists. Among some of those who abandoned atheism and became Christians are few names that come to mind:

       ~ C.S. Lewis
       ~ Helen Joy Davidman (wife of C.S. Lewis)
       ~ Francis Collins (geneticist)
       ~ Alister E. McGrath
       ~ Nicholas (Nicky) Glyn Paul Gumbel
       ~ William J. Murray  (son of American atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair)
                      . . . and later on I heard of:
       ~ Miranda Threlfall-Holmes q.v. here

I'm sure a Muslim who craves the wonder of statistical quotes would soon jump in here to give us an encyclopedic list of those who became Muslims (of course, by default no mention of those who left Islam and became atheists). . the wonder of it all is magical!

However, after the statistics, then what? I can relate in part to the experiences of C. S. Lewis who was tauted by atheists as having not been an atheist before his conversion! By that, I mean that so many Muslims themselves have said repeatedly that I was never a true Muslim before I became a Christian. The question would now be to understand the foundation of such assertions on all sides, viz:

        ~ who really is an atheist and what infact is atheism?

        ~ who really is a Christian and what infact is Christianity?

        ~ who really is a Muslim, and what infact is Islam?

Certainly, there could be so many more added to that list; but I restricted myself to those mentioned in yours for the present discourse. I believe that when we begin to ask the real questions here, the interest in statistics would fade to the background and we shall all gain insights that we never thought of formerly.

I would not be selfish to turn this interesting thread into a platform for telling my story; but I'm sure that most people would agree with me that it may be pertinent to mention aspects of it between making a point. As someone who has been on either side of the theisms under review, would it help to share a few matters between times as to clarify the view points here of what it means to be either a Muslim or Christian? Even though not many people would agree with what I have to say (especially Muslims who keep accusing me of knowing nothing about Islam befor I left), then at least I could say a few things about what it means to be a Christian?

It would help us better to move from revelling in statistics of metanoia to facing up to the real issues. If otherwise, perhaps it may be far more interesting for me to sit back and enjoy the drama as it unfolds.

Regards.

huxley:

I thought Jesus said, "Whenever two or more people are gather in my name, I am amongst them". So why would one not find Jesus in one church when he is supposed to be in all churches?

Have you taken the time to understand that it was the same Lord Jesus Christ who said that not everyone who calls His name is actually living according to His Word?

pilgrim.1:

Have you taken the time to understand that it was the same Lord Jesus Christ who said that not everyone who calls His name is actually living according to His Word?

Well, the least you can say then is that Jesus was a man of contradiction , erhm.

pilgrim.1:

Dear @huxley,

I wonder what the purpose of this thread actually is - whether in spirit it was truly aimed at understanding Christianity by knowing who a Christian or Muslim is; or to make a case for conversions from those positions to atheism. The thing that often makes me sit back and marvel at this drama is man's proclivity to revel in statistics of such nature. One could quote statistics of conversions, deconversions, interconversions, reconversions, or any other metanoia out there. But is that really the issue at the end of the day?

Just about the time I started asking serious questions in my former religion, indeed I came across a lot of people who had converted from atheism to Christianity as well as left Islam and became atheists. Among some of those who abandoned atheism and became Christians are few names that come to mind:

~ C.S. Lewis
~ Helen Joy Davidman (wife of C.S. Lewis)
~ Francis Collins (geneticist)
~ Alister E. McGrath
~ Nicholas (Nicky) Glyn Paul Gumbel
~ William J. Murray (son of American atheist Madalyn Murray O'Hair)
. . . and later on I heard of:
~ Miranda Threlfall-Holmes q.v. here

I'm sure a Muslim who craves the wonder of statistical quotes would soon jump in here to give us an encyclopedic list of those who became Muslims (of course, by default no mention of those who left Islam and became atheists). . the wonder of it all is magical!

However, after the statistics, then what? I can relate in part to the experiences of C. S. Lewis who was tauted by atheists as having not been an atheist before his conversion! By that, I mean that so many Muslims themselves have said repeatedly that I was never a true Muslim before I became a Christian. The question would now be to understand the foundation of such assertions on all sides, viz:

~ who really is an atheist and what infact is atheism?

~ who really is a Christian and what infact is Christianity?

~ who really is a Muslim, and what infact is Islam?

Certainly, there could be so many more added to that list; but I restricted myself to those mentioned in yours for the present discourse. I believe that when we begin to ask the real questions here, the interest in statistics would fade to the background and we shall all gain insights that we never thought of formerly.

I would not be selfish to turn this interesting thread into a platform for telling my story; but I'm sure that most people would agree with me that it may be pertinent to mention aspects of it between making a point. As someone who has been on either side of the theisms under review, would it help to share a few matters between times as to clarify the view points here of what it means to be either a Muslim or Christian? Even though not many people would agree with what I have to say (especially Muslims who keep accusing me of knowing nothing about Islam befor I left), then at least I could say a few things about what it means to be a Christian?

It would help us better to move from revelling in statistics of metanoia to facing up to the real issues. If otherwise, perhaps it may be far more interesting for me to sit back and enjoy the drama as it unfolds.

Regards.

You made some good point. In fact I thought I had made the point in my original post but have just found that I forget to put it down, although it was in my mind at the time of writing.

Generally, the numbers do not count as arguments. What is more revealing are the arguments given for crossing the line in favour of a new position.

@huxley,

huxley:

Well, the least you can say then is that Jesus was a man of contradiction , erhm.

I wouldn't be so assuming if I were you. What is contradictory in His clear injunction that He promises His presence to those who keep His word? It would rather have been contradictory if He had promised His presence to those who deny His word.



Edited:

huxley:

Generally, the numbers do not count as arguments. What is more revealing are the arguments given for crossing the line in favour of a new position.

Reasons for all kinds of metanoia will come in at some point; however, I thought initially that the thread set out to find out "Who Is A Christian Or A Muslim"? Anyhow, your point is germane to the discussion overall, I think.