Rhetoric

Often takes the form of drawing extreme pseudo-logical conclusions from an opposing viewpoint, and making a further illogical inference that your own point must therefore be right.

E.g I don't think that science can explain everything.

Answer: Which peer reviewed paper on ghosts did you last read?

Answering a question with a question

Usually a form of rhetoric, where logic takes a back seat. No explanation is given as to how or why the second question is related to the original one.

E.g How much evidence is there that man and chimpanzees have a common ancestor?

Answer: Do you think some sky daddy created them?

Inventing an opposing point of view and then attacking it.

This often takes the form of pigeonholing a different viewpoint, or failing to query it before launching into an irrational rant against an assumed viewpoint.

E.g

How do you explain xyz about evolution?

Answer: So you think the Earth is 6000 years old?

Stupid psychological distractions.

Very common and immature. Attribute some false or obviously inaccurate quote to somebody and hope they get drawn away from the real discussion to deny the falsehood.

Multiple sign-on syndrome.

Create multiple accounts to like your own posts. Clearly, the culprits don't realize how obvious, stupid and sad this looks.

That basically summarizes the low standard of much of the discussion on this forum. The worst offenders appear to be the members who say that they like reason and rationality. They use the most cartoons, rhetoric, shallow arguments, misrepresentations and tactics as outlined above.

Is this sad state of affairs going to improve?

Op calm down and explain to us why you are annoyed.

We meet again, Mr Sinequanon.

I see that you are not happy.

AllNaijaBlogger:
We meet again, Mr Sinequanon.

I see that you are not happy.

I don't believe he is ever happy when he opens a topic...and I'm sure he's pissed because he was served back with the same rhetoric he uses to equivocate terms...

I am not really interested in the opinions of you guys. I don't enter discussions trying to impose my opinions, so, if you have an agenda, you can take it away with you. I only discuss to observe the myriad of opinions people have.

I do, however wish to hear from someone capable of appraising the situation maturely.

I was born and brought up in the UK, but I still care about my country of origin. What they can do relatively well in the UK (and they have a long tradition of doing so) is to sit round a table and have a discussion without making it into a fraught political and psychological game. People who play games have already decided that developments are going to be based on something other than harmonious agreement and rationale. It is a downward death spiral which is notoriously difficult to pull out of. Eventually, the entire culture suffers, and it becomes impossible to be forthright and fair in your dealings, without being seen as a naive target. That is a sad state of affairs.

Reading Achebe, I noticed that Nigerians (Igbo people in that case) had a system of formal speaking and progressive dialogue. It is disappointing to see what Nigerian dialogue has become, and I have set out in the OP some of the habits that will make progress an impossibility, while they persist.

The habits almost amount to a dereliction of humanity. It really is that bad. The mode of communication has often reduced to the fight or flight instinct seen in animals, rather than considered dialogue and civilized search for common interest. I really think that our mode of communication is at the heart of Nigeria's suffering.

Each time you satisfy yourself psychologically with one of the habits mentioned in the OP, you add to the political "pollution" that is holding Nigeria back.

What they can do relatively well in the UK (and they have a long tradition of doing so) is to sit round a table and have a discussion without making it into a fraught political and psychological game.

Hilarious.

Clearly you have never listened to Prime Ministers Questions.

The whole thing is a psychological game, usually with nothing of substance coming from it.

Enjoy your mythology.

mmsen:
What they can do relatively well in the UK (and they have a long tradition of doing so) is to sit round a table and have a discussion without making it into a fraught political and psychological game.

Hilarious.

Clearly you have never listened to Prime Ministers Questions.

The whole thing is a psychological game, usually with nothing of substance coming from it.

Enjoy your mythology.

You are responding to your sense of offence at the OP.

I hope many of us develop the humility to take a step back and face facts.

Prime Ministers Questions is a show for the public. At proper functional meetings, the British are far more disciplined than Nigerians. Sad but true. Being defensive is a disservice to your culture. There needs to be a root and branch change.

sinequanon:


You are responding to your sense of offence at the OP.

I hope many of us develop the humility to take a step back and face facts.

Prime Ministers Questions is a show for the public. At proper functional meetings, the British are far more disciplined than Nigerians. Sad but true. Being defensive is a disservice to your culture. There needs to be a root and branch change.

I stated facts.

You have responded with conjecture about a person you do not know.

I have issues with Nigerian society but the Brits are no example - you have to find your own way, which means doing what is best for your own society and not simply imitating northern Europeans. Sadly Nigerians often fail to understand this.


P.S.
The Chinese have pulled more people out of poverty in a 30 year period than any other society in history - surely they would make for a better reference point than a decayed empirical power.

mmsen:


I stated facts.

You have responded with conjecture about a person you do not know.

I have issues with Nigerian society but the Brits are no example - you have to find your own way, which means doing what is best for your own society and not simply imitating northern Europeans. Sadly Nigerians often fail to understand this.

It is not conjecture. Your reaction was predictable and your vibe obvious from your post. Nobody mentioned imitation, apart from you.

mmsen:

P.S.
The Chinese have pulled more people out of poverty in a 30 year period than any other society in history - surely they would make for a better reference point than an decayed empirical power.

I was a long time member of a Chinese forum, and they were far and away superior debaters to most of what i see here. Not least, they didn't get so bogged down with defending small misconceptions.

I didn't use the Chinese as an example, because much of the control of political dialogue is coercive. I find the Chinese excellent at sticking to the point, being logical in their arguments, but often not daring to venture creative ideas, related to the point.

Rented crowd things.

@op
Don't you even feel a tad silly complaining about the quality of debates on a religious forum ?

It goes a long way to show that, like a lot of other things, you are quite naive about what religion is and how it affects people.

plaetton:
@op
Don't you even feel a tad silly complaining about the quality of debates on a religious forum ?

It goes a long way to show that, like a lot of other things, you are quite naive about what religion is and how it affects people.

He said that he isn't interested in the opinions of the people that he is now preaching to.

What do you call such a person?

mmsen:


He said that he isn't interested in the opinions of the people that he is now preaching to.

What do you call such a person?

Not sure yet what to make of him.

I think he might be just an exuberant youth hung up on Premature Extrapolations , a form of intellectual self-service .

And the OP's point is proven.

plaetton:


Not sure yet what to make of him.

I think he might be just an exuberant youth hung up on Premature Extrapolations , a form of intellectual self-service .

Intellectual self service or more accurately literary diarrhea.

Because there is nothing "intellectual" about what this character has written.

I agree with the OP. If that was ALL the debate there was on this forum it would be very poor.
Fortunately I dont think that is all that is on here.

It's important to note that its both sides that throw counter arguments like that. So it will not be accurate to make it seem like its the non-believers that are single handedly bringing down the level of debate.

Also pick your battles wisely. Sometimes you must check out of a discussion (eg when confronted with a robot) because further discourse would be intellectually unstimulating and frankly a waste of time.

OP should open their version of NL and invite us

lolzzz... what are the xyz of evolution?
answer should be: Go read it up, if you ever read books you wouldnt have been asking such questions!!!
(Scientific books are not like the buy bull that have millions of interpretations, everybody given it their own meaning ignoring the literal meaning...Scientific books are straight and gives one explanation and means exactly what it says no different interpretations)
WE NEED A LIBRARY IN NAIRALAND... AM NOW CONSIDERING OPENING A PDF E-LIBRARY FORUM HERE ON NAIRALAND....People need more books!!!

First, this is religious forum, therefore expectations should not be high about seeing good sensible or logically flawless arguments.

Secondly, at any given time on the front page of this forumn, there are about 30 religious threads to 1 non-religious or atheist- inspired thread.

Yet the 1 non-religious themed thread , it's op and apologists are the ones everyone expects to abide by all rules of sensible logical discourse.

Double standard.

johnydon22:
lolzzz... what are the xyz of evolution?

It says, "how do you explain xyz about evolution".

See how you launched into a response without understanding the point

It is asking how the theory of evolution applies in a particular example, not about the general principle of evolution. The general principle has to be tested by trying to apply it.

johnydon22:
answer should be: Go read it up, if you ever read books you wouldnt have been asking such questions!!!

So, now you are attacking your own misconception. At this point you will be ranting a cross-purposes with the OP.

johnydon22:
(Scientific books are not like the buy bull that have millions of interpretations, everybody given it their own meaning ignoring the literal meaning...Scientific books are straight and gives one explanation and means exactly what it says no different interpretations)
WE NEED A LIBRARY IN NAIRALAND... AM NOW CONSIDERING OPENING A PDF E-LIBRARY FORUM HERE ON NAIRALAND....People need more books!!!

You are off-topic, but also incorrect in the tangent on which you have gone off. Of course there is contention in science and books can give more than one interpretation of scientific evidence. Anyone who says otherwise must be fairly clueless about what science is.

If you dispute something, it is important to understand what you are disputing (unlike your own response, here). But reading and understanding a point of view should not prevent you from being critical, unless you have some sort of inferiority complex.

johnydon22:
lolzzz... what are the xyz of evolution?
answer should be: Go read it up, if you ever read books you wouldnt have been asking such questions!!!
(Scientific books are not like the buy bull that have millions of interpretations, everybody given it their own meaning ignoring the literal meaning...Scientific books are straight and gives one explanation and means exactly what it says no different interpretations)
WE NEED A LIBRARY IN NAIRALAND... AM NOW CONSIDERING OPENING A PDF E-LIBRARY FORUM HERE ON NAIRALAND....People need more books!!!

That's a good idea....a topic with the header "library" should be in the science section where pdf files can be uploaded....then If anyone doesn't know about certain theories,they can readily get it there and read...atleast refusing to do that would prove his/her intellectual dishonesty..

Redlyn:
I agree with the OP. If that was ALL the debate there was on this forum it would be very poor.
Fortunately I dont think that is all that is on here.

There is the bias of the topics I am interested in. If it is about scripture, then I usually feel no need to involve myself. I am fairly dismissive of the whole thing, but feel no need to rant or impose my opinions. I do skim some of the threads because I think it is important to have an idea of other people's outlooks.

Of the topics I am interested in, I have seen much better arguments on other forums, sadly, non-Naija.

Redlyn:
It's important to note that its both sides that throw counter arguments like that. So it will not be accurate to make it seem like its the non-believers that are single handedly bring down the level of debate.

In my skimming of the scripture based threads, I haven't noticed the same laxness of debate. That could possibly be due to my lack of involvement. But I tend to think that the threads in general reflect a shallow knee-jerk behaviour on the part of non-believers who are ironically obsessed with scripture. It is like trying to use logic on a red zone dog. I speak as an "unbeliever", myself, and I think these so-called atheists are some of the worst possible ambassadors for "unbelief".

Redlyn:
Also pick your battle wisely. Sometimes you must check out a discussion (eg when confronted with a robot) because further discourse would be intellectually unstimulating and frankly a waste of time.

Don't make a battle of it, at all. I talk across them and then park the debate, if their contributions are worthless, except to demonstrate lack of reason and depth of thought.