allonym:

Your scripture quotations only applied to the Israelites in the Old Testament.

The 10 commandments were given to the Isrealites.
The 10 commandments were given in the old testament.
But the 10 commandments are applicable to all christians.

So what are u saying? That anything commanded to Isrealites cannot be applicable to we christians of today? Or that anything written in the old testament should not be followed? C'mon! gimme a break..

allonym:

Tithing has NEVER been commanded of Christians in the bible.

Tell me, what do you call the text in Malachi 3:10? A decision?

Deuteronomy 14:23-29 (NLT)

"Bring this tithe to the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to fear the Lord your God.

Now the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored might be a long way from your home.
If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds and take the money to the place the Lord your God chooses. When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want-an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.
And do not forget the Levites in your community, for they have no inheritance as you do.

At the end of every third year bring the tithe of all your crops and store it in the nearest town.
Give it to the Levites, who have no inheritance among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work."

goodguy:

Sorry to say this, but your comment is so lame.

The 10 commandments were given to the Isrealites.
The 10 commandments were given in the old testament.
But the 10 commandments are applicable to all christians.

So what are u saying? That anything commanded to Isrealites cannot be applicable to we christians of today? Or that anything written in the old testament should not be followed? C'mon! gimme a break..
Tell me, what do you call the text in Malachi 3:10? A decision?

The text in Malachi was a message to the Israelites - not to Christians.

Further, do you really believe what you said about anything being commanded to the Israelites is applicable today? I really doubt that. In the law given to the israelites, if your brother marries a woman and dies without having any children, you are required to impregnate her (without marrying her) so that you're brother's family line can continue. Does that apply to me today?

In the old testament, there were laws given for the treatment of slaves. So, you are saying that as long as I follow those laws, it is ok for me to own slaves?

If you reply NO to either of those two things, then you have just contradicted the post I quoted. Since I'm pretty sure you're about the contradict yourself, I await your more thought out response.

People like Goodguy are only supporting that part of Malachi because that's what they are using to instill unnecessary fear into the heart of people that can't "shine their eyes".

Let me ask you (Goodguy), when did Jacob(Israel) start paying his tithe?

wow

Joftech,

By your statement:


"The way most of these pastors talk/preach  tithe clearly shows the money is their main source of livelihood. If i am the  president i will outlaw the payment of tithes and some unnecessary levies in churches and i will see if we will still have as many churches as we have now".

... that is why you will never sit in that office of President. Kings and Pharoahs of old, who were more profane than you could ever be, who had tried to oppose God's laws had always failed ...And not without disgrace.

"...The law of the lord standeth sure!..."

Another thing,

According to Christ, everything he wants for us is free. We don't have to do any works to get into heaven. All we have to do is believe in him and love others as he loved us.

This means, I don't have to pay tithes to get blessings - blessings are a free gift from God. In fact, I would be insulting God, to attempt to pay for his gift. Only one person could possibly pay any price for any of God's gifts, and Jesus has already given his life.

Imagine, you mother gives you a nice, thoughtful Christmas present to you (while you were a poor starving college student) and you pull out your check book and say, thanks mom, let me write you a check for your troubles.

Free is free, technically, when you are truely giving away something for free, you expect nothing in return. No strings attached. That is the same with the Love of God and the Blessings of God. There are no strings attached. I don't have to do anything to have God love me. I don't have to do anything to have God bless me.

the old testament is ancient. even the new testament is old. there should be a "modern testament" with stuff that apply to human now. not "and he went to jerusalem riding on a mule". the new version should be "and he went to London riding on a mercedes". hehehe 

"and they lay down tree trunks for him" should be "and they made fireworks and confetti for him"

allonym:

The text in Malachi was a message to the Israelites - not to Christians.

Likewise was the text in Exodus 20 a message to the Isrealites - also for christians.

joftech:

Further, do you really believe what you said about anything being commanded to the Israelites is applicable today? I really doubt that. In the law given to the israelites, if your brother marries a woman and dies without having any children, you are required to impregnate her (without marrying her) so that you're brother's family line can continue. Does that apply to me today?

If you'd read my post carefully, I never said anything commanded to the Isrealites is applicable today. You made a comment that God commanded the Isrealites only to pay tithes. You simply implied that since the commandment was given to Isrealites, then only the Isrealites should follow it. Then I pointed out that, if that was the case, the 10 commandments were also given to the Isrealites only, but it's not only the Isrealites that are following it. It is also applicable to the Christians of today. So what then stops tithing from being followed by christians of today? Pls explain!

My response applies to ur other questions too.

joftech:

People like Goodguy are only supporting that part of Malachi because that's what they are using to instill unnecessary fear into the heart of people that can't "shine their eyes".

What are u saying? That Malachi is an outdated verse of the Bible or what?

joftech:

Let me ask you (Goodguy), when did Jacob(Israel) start paying his tithe?

I don't know.

So many of you twist the verses in the Bible to suit ur own taste. We all know so many of these verses do not have literal meanings. But with verses like Numbers 18:28 and Malachi 3:8-12, one needs no pastor or prophet to tell you these have direct/understandable meanings and nothing should be attached to it.

Oga Donnie what gave you that impression that forcing people to pay tithes by telling them evil will befall them if they don't pay it is doing God's will.

God give things freely. Some people are so ignorant sha; they see God as someone who is selling blessing like all these pastors are doing. No wonder benny hinn was outraged when they (Nigerian Pastors) fleeced him of money he has to give proper account form.

Hiding under Malachi 3:10 to instill fear into peoples heart is something that i see as the greatest extorsion of modern time.


Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

joftech:

Hiding under Malachi 3:10 to instill fear into peoples heart is something that i see as the greatest extorsion of modern time.

That's your opinion and u're entitled to it.

joftech:

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

You see what I mean?? Using the verse to suit yourself. What gives you the impression that Bible was referring to those pastors who demand that church members should pay tithes?
Pls know that most pastors don't demand for it because they want to spend it. But for the fact that as pastors, they have to ensure that the church members do what is right.

wow, why?

why what?

goodguy:

Likewise was the text in Exodus 20 a message to the Isrealites - also for christians.
If you'd read my post carefully, I never said anything commanded to the Isrealites is applicable today. You made a comment that God commanded the Isrealites only to pay tithes. You simply implied that since the commandment was given to Isrealites, then only the Isrealites should follow it. Then I pointed out that, if that was the case, the 10 commandments were also given to the Isrealites only, but it's not only the Isrealites that are following it. It is also applicable to the Christians of today. So what then stops tithing from being followed by christians of today? Please explain!

Well, tithing was commanded of the Israelites as a means of supporting the priest tribe (and entire tribe of Israel comprising at least 1/12 of the country. In fact, we know that the levites had to be more than 1/12 of Israel since Judah and Benjamin were the smallest tribes. Further, there were three tithes, the annual normal tithe, the tithe for the annual celebration, and the jubilee tithe (every three years). Additionally, if a person did not own a certain amount of livestock (earn a certain amount) that year, he/she did not have to pay tithes. Further, tithes were paid in animal offerings. If you paid with money, you had to pay EXTRA (more than 10%). The Israelites were commanded to be faithful to this:

Why - well, if they didn't, the priest class would starve, and then they would have to do other work than as priests and thus would not be able to dedicate their full lives to his service.

Now, as christians, we don't have to tithe (in most cases). Why, cause our pastors or whoever are in many cases PAID a SALARY. So, they don't need our monetary support. We were not commanded to support our preachers or pastors with tithes. Nobody paid tithes to the disciples or Paul. In fact, since we no longer worship under the same priest-synagogue that the Jews did, there is NOBODY to pay tithes to. We don't have priests who collect our offers and go intervene on our behalf with God, we get down on our kness and do it ourselves.

So, summary:

1) We are not Jews, we don't worship under the same rules and places, so there is techically NOBODY to pay tithes to.
2) We were not commaded to pay tithes to those who lead us in our worship of God. There is NO example in the new testament of Paul or the disciples collecting tithes from the christians they taught.
3) Tithes were commaded of the Israelites to support the priest class. Most of our preachers are paid a salary and some have other jobs, therefore, we don't need to support them monetarily.
4) Even if your preacher is one that must be supported monetarily, he/she is only one person - one family. . not a tribe. They don't need a full 10%.
5)Tithes were to be paid with livestock, if you paid with money, you got charged an additional percentage! That would change the actual amount to 12 or 15%, not 10%.
6)Tithes were to be paid ANNUALLY - based on what you left at the end of the year. So, if you were a cow herder, and you raised 20 cows, and needed 5 to feed your family for a year, you paid a tithe based on 15 cows, not all 20. So tithes would technically be taken from the money you had LEFT after paying bills, food, and other neccessities, not the other way round.

Mostof the above require pretty strict interpretations of the scripture. If you want to apply that scripture to TODAY - situations which are NOT covered by the scripture, (AND thus not use a strict interpretation), then your interpretation of how it applies is just as good as mine, and it is impossible for you to say that you have a better idea of what God would want than me (or vice-versa). If this is the case, I cannot say you are wrong, and you cannot say I'm not right. If that is not the case, I'm right, and you're wrong.

... one needs no pastor or prophet to tell you these have direct/understandable meanings and nothing should be attached to it.

So does the passage below have a direct/understandable meaning and should anything be added to it; and what does the passage mean, what does it tell us for today?



Deuteronomy 14:23-29 (NLT)

"Bring this tithe to the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored, and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. The purpose of tithing is to teach you always to fear the Lord your God.

Now the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored might be a long way from your home.
If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds and take the money to the place the Lord your God chooses. When you arrive, use the money to buy anything you want-an ox, a sheep, some wine, or beer. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household.
And do not forget the Levites in your community, for they have no inheritance as you do.

At the end of every third year bring the tithe of all your crops and store it in the nearest town.
Give it to the Levites, who have no inheritance among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work."

Let me proxy goodguy's response:

"This scripture doesn't apply to us today. Did I ever say all scripture applies. Only the ones I TELL you apply count. The rest of the bible, you should ignore."



And as nefyrn has mentioned in other posts

Not only has the current bible been shaped by the politics of the catholic church, it is incomplete. I think I would love to hold discussions with Ethiopian christians and find out how much protestant (in this case baptist) views differ from theirs. Its too bad so much of the early church history is lost.

allonym:

Let me proxy goodguy's response:

"This scripture doesn't apply to us today. Did I ever say all scripture applies. Only the ones I TELL you apply count. The rest of the bible, you should ignore."

Please don't get me wrong. I was never against any of the other passages quoted by other people. The only point I am trying to make clear here is that GOD COMMANDED THAT WE SHOULD PAY TITHE (MALACHI 3:8-12) AND IT IS PAYABLE TO THE PASTOR (NUMBERS 18:28).
Now, anyone who says, "Hiding under Malachi 3:8-12 to instill fear into peoples heart is something that i see as the greatest extorsion of modern time." is simply saying that Malachi 3 should not be followed and probably should be excluded from the Bible.

allonym:

And as nefyrn has mentioned in other posts

Not only has the current bible been shaped by the politics of the catholic church, it is incomplete. I think I would love to hold discussions with Ethiopian christians and find out how much protestant (in this case baptist) views differ from theirs. Its too bad so much of the early church history is lost.

You could be right.

then what about enigma's posts or my posts?

Enigma posts where we're commanded to tithe. However, only in one case do we give the tithe to someone else. The other times, we're to enjoy the tithe in the Lord's presence. The tithe was to be given to the Levites - an entire TRIBE of people - because they had no inheritance (ie they were not a money generating people). So, that means, if anything, a portion of my tithes should be going to people who have nothing, NOT the church. The rest is spent on ME and MY family in the glory of the Lord.

Isn't that what God commanded for the tithes. So, yes, I agree that we should tithe just like God commanded. I disagree with ppl saying that tithing means I give my money to church for it to use as it pleases.

Not only has the current bible been shaped by the politics of the catholic church, it is incomplete. I think I would love to hold discussions with Ethiopian christians and find out how much protestant (in this case baptist) views differ from theirs. Its too bad so much of the early church history is lost.

That is why no one (Church) knows Christianity better than the Catholic church. It's good that some of you can admit that fact.
At times it amazes me when some people talk that the Catholic Church is not doing the will of God and that we don't "know" the Bible.

joftech:

That is why no one (Church) knows Christianity better than the Catholic church. It's good that some of you can admit that fact.
At times it amazes me when some people talk that the Catholic Church is not doing the will of God and that we don't "know" the Bible.

That is not a reason. You're telling me that if the USA decides to rewrite the history books of the world, 100 years from now, everyone should listen to whatever the USA has to say about what happened?

Just because they erased history doesn't give them a monopoly on information. If anything, its a reason NOT to listen to the catholic church's teachings.

I s that not true joftech? no arguement there.ok.it is a simple true.

That is not a reason. You're telling me that if the USA decides to rewrite the history books of the world, 100 years from now, everyone should listen to whatever the USA has to say about what happened?

You will definately believe what they wrote because that's what you will know nothing else than what you are reading. Before it was widely believed that the earth was flat, but now we know it's not. It will sound odd if you now go about saying it's flat, what you have there is a classical example of re-written history.

Just because they erased history doesn't give them a monopoly on information. If anything, its a reason NOT to listen to the catholic church's teachings.

If you decide not to listen to the Catholic church then you are not a Christian. And remember power belongs to whomever has control over it.

you still misunderstand.

In the example I gave, knowing that america rewrote history or had a hand in writing it, and probably skewed things in their favor, I have three choices

1) Believe everything
2) Believe nothing
3) Take what I see with a grain of salt

I choose #3. I'm not going to fully trust their version. Even if they are the ONLY source of information, that doesn't implicitly guarantee my trust.

So are you not going to believe Jesus Christ too?

thats not what i said is it?

joftech:

If you decide not to listen to the Catholic church then you are not a Christian.

Funny..!

i suppose that baptist christians or pentecostal christians are not really christian then

where is oga donnie?

to me is goood to pay Tithe so whether u pay or u know pay bear it in mind that it is good for one to pay tithe

Thank you my sister.

Have any of you consider the possibility of larceny by trick and Deception.

I think it's high time the admin close down this thread.