lexiconkabir:
See your life? you dont know the difference between a tooth and a brain, oh! low I.Q.

Dont mind, i know why i used this picture.Next time, .....use ur brain if you have one...

lexiconkabir:
the OT was mutilated by the jews without recognition, so it wont favour Ishmael and his decendants, for example 2samuel17:25 says jethro(also know as ithra) was an isrealite while 1chronicles2:17 says he is an ishmaelite. why the confusion? according to the Qur'an jethro(known as shuaib in arabic) was a decendant of ishmael making him an ishmaelite, who knows, maybe the verse that says ishmael was cursed is another rotten lie by the jews in the OT.

Apologies to the op for this digression:
I am yet to find any Bible that renders both as Ishmaelite. It was common practise for people of other nations to naturalise to become Israelites eg:
17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king’s commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Esther 7:17
This happened right in the midst of the Medo-Persian empire!

Regarding the issue at hand, the Ishmaelite married an Israelite woman. Evidently, he would be counted as both an Ishmaelite and Israelite the reason for the former being, among other things, for genealogical purposes: the woman's name wont appear in genealogy hence that of her husband will be used. Besides, this was the principle in Israel:

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exodus 12:48,49

Meaning if a foreigner submits to circumcision, he will be counted as an Israelite.

@scholar8200, if what you are trying to establish isnt another "twisting" then why are some bible version updating both verses calling jether an ishmaelite? click http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/17-25.htm and http://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/2-17.htm and see different versions, some version used ishmaelite for both, while some used distinct nationality. though kjv(i believe this is what you are using) used distinct nationality.

lexiconkabir:
@scholar8200, if what you are trying to establish isnt another "twisting" then why are some bible version updating both verses calling jether an ishmaelite? click http://biblehub.com/2_samuel/17-25.htm and http://biblehub.com/1_chronicles/2-17.htm and see different versions, some version used ishmaelite for both, while some used distinct nationality. though kjv(i believe this is what you are using) used distinct nationality.

The Authorised kjv I use shows Ishmaelite and Israelite at various passages.

It wont be right to accuse the others of twisting because the fact remains that the man , though is recognised as an Israelite by tradition, did not cease to be an Ishmaelite. Just as the proselytes at Jerusalem in Acts 2:10,11 spoke of people speaking in their mother tongue. These were devout people from other nations who apparently by circumcision etc had become 'as one born as an Israelite'.

Notice the central role circumcision plays in these passage:
Genesis 34:16-23 just like Exodus 12:48

It's a case of dual citizenship.

Ishmaelites....

Is this a blessing or curse? Muslims...answer

Scholar8200:
The Authorised kjv I use shows Ishmaelite and Israelite at various passages.

It wont be right to accuse the others of twisting because the fact remains that the man , though is recognised as an Israelite by tradition, did not cease to be an Ishmaelite. Just as the proselytes at Jerusalem in Acts 2:10,11 spoke of people speaking in their mother tongue. These were devout people from other nations who apparently by circumcision etc had become 'as one born as an Israelite'.

Notice the central role circumcision plays in these passage:
Genesis 34:16-23 just like Exodus 12:48

It's a case of dual citizenship.

you dont seem to get my point here, i already know about the dual citizenship, what i'm saying is, why did some versions updated theirs to ishmaelite? because like 4months back, it was still isrealite in ALL, why changed now? at least ishmaelite and isrealite would have distinct words in hebrews, then why the inconsistencies in translation?

lexiconkabir:
you dont seem to get my point here, i already know about the dual citizenship, what i'm saying is, why did some versions updated theirs to ishmaelite? because like 4months back, it was still isrealite in ALL, why changed now? at least ishmaelite and isrealite would have distinct words in hebrews, then why the inconsistencies in translation?

Do you have proof for the highlighted?

.

Scholar8200:
Do you have proof for the highlighted?

unfortunately i have no proof for that, i wouldnt have known that it will change, to be sincere, i was shocked when i saw the changes. i tried downloading an old version of NIV but couldnt get it, however, there is something worth of note here, ishmaelite and isrealite are two distinct words that should have their own words each in hebrew, then why the inconsistencies in translation? some says ishmaelite and isrealite, and some says ishmaelite only(about 6 bibles)

lexiconkabir:
unfortunately i have no proof for that, i wouldnt have known that it will change, to be sincere, i was shocked when i saw the changes. i tried downloading an old version of NIV but couldnt get it, however, there is something worth of note here, ishmaelite and isrealite are two distinct words that should have their own words each in hebrew, then why the inconsistencies in translation? some says ishmaelite and isrealite, and some says ishmaelite only(about 6 bibles)

I dicovered what you are saying! The NIV on biblestudytools.com retains the old NIV renditions.

The hebrew text reads Israelite for 2 Samuel 17:25
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_samuel/17-25.htm

It seems biblestudytools.com, unlike biblehub are sticking with the old NIV and not updating based , I believe, on NIV's recent revision. However, we cannot crucify biblehub because they still retained the other versions that did not change that passage and also did not change the hebrew as seen above. They might be under instruction to reflect these things as they are not the translators of the various verses you find under the parallel section.

You are a witness that some NLers have opened threads before now denouncing the NIV based on some other gross omissions.

I would rather a footnote/commentary explaining the cultural practice in Israel as regarding naturalization and dual citizenship be included rather than an outright change that seeks to help people who would not have that background understanding.

^^^

This is what the muslims say when you expose them...

Allah's blessings to Muslims is weeping and death...

lexiconkabir:
This is what they Always result to, when beaten to pulp. i ask again, where is your brain? in [size=18pt] you [/size] anus i guess.

You haven't cured your illness?? Open the Quran fast and start from there...

@lexiconcabie, Lemme tell you how I learn what islam means: When I/the world hear bombs, we hear islam.
When I/ the world see women dressed in black sacks,/hijab we see islam.
Facing animality, anger and greed for power, we face islam. When I or the world smell death, we smell Islam.
When we hear muslims say peace, we know they mean war. Islam is a virus terrorising the world. You own part of who Muhammad is is false. But the truth about Muhammad is thé life He lived and what we see today. Can you refute this?

plappville:


You haven't cured your illness?? Open the Quran fast and start from there...

i can see that you are jobless, because you managed to point out that TYPO error which i ignored at first, you then mentioned it again, you must be very happy pointing out a typo error, because i pointed out a grammatical error from you. But frankly speaking if you didnt know that i made a typo error then there is a big problem.

lexiconkabir:
i can see that you are jobless, because you managed to point out that TYPO error which i ignored at first, you then mentioned it again, you must be very happy pointing out a typo error, because i pointed out a grammatical error from you. But frankly speaking if you didnt know that i made a typo error then there is a big problem.

I have been seeing your errors but never mind pointing them out. I pointed this particular one to prove to you that you are not free from errors like you claimed. I dont point out errors from people here. Because i'm not here to teach anyone English but to exposed Islam.. to tell you muslims that the only reason why you keep blind eyea to the truth is because you are GENETICALLY BRAINWASHED. .. allah akubar...bomb blast hahaha (joking)

.

plappville:


I have been seeing your errors but never mind pointing them out. I pointed this particular one to prove to you that you are not free from errors like you claimed. I dont point out errors from people here. Because i'm not here to teach anyone English but to exposed Islam.. to tell you muslims that the only reason why you keep blind eyea to the truth is because you are GENETICALLY BRAINWASHED. .. allah akubar...bomb blast hahaha (joking)

jobless fooool, i have things to do, i have a life outside NL which obviously you dont, anyway i am not surprised, what do you expect from someone that is mentally derailed.

lexiconkabir:
jobless fooool, i have things to do, i have a life outside NL which obviously you dont, anyway i am not surprised, what do you expect from someone that is mentally derailed.

Do you think is Jobless to expose the Quran?

Some Ishmaelites through Islam are fighting against the rest of the world. Daesh is threating to attack Washington, France and Italy. These nations you attack feed you, give your children free education, free accommodation, etc. The same people you run to for refuge are thesame people you are killing. Muslims be reasonable and question the Qur'an. It's evil and should be questioned.

Reject the Beast....

.

Indeed, the Israelites are cursed..

plappville:
Ishmael Cursed?

The Angel of God gives a pronouncement about the child in Hagars womb.

(Genesis 16:10-12 ) 10 “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”


11 “You will give birth to a son. You shall name him Ishmael, for the Lord has hear of your misery.”


12 “He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers.”

Did God cursed Ishmael Seeing what is happening today. You will conclude that The so-called Arab people are cursed through Ishmael they kill others and also kill themselves. People hate them because they hate others. They like violence. Thier children live and grow up in a violent environment. They see nothing wrong in it. What exactly is this statement from God . Curse or blessing?

The verse is translated so because of Jewish hostility to Ishmael.
Well get your enlightened. Here is an analysis of the real translation

We try to briefly examine, was prophet Ishmael( ﺹ ) really a ‘Wild Ass’ Man (Astaghfirullah) or Is it a deliberate character assassination due to the enmities which arose in prophet Abraham’s extended family contributed to the translation of Gen 16: 12?
Genesis 16:11-12
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר לָהּ֙ מַלְאַ֣ךְ יְהוָ֔ה הִנָּ֥ךְ הָרָ֖ה וְיֹלַ֣דְתְּ בֵּ֑ןוְקָרָ֤את שְׁמוֹ֙ יִשְׁמָעֵ֔אל כִּֽי־שָׁמַ֥ע יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־עָנְיֵֽךְ
And the angel of the LORD said unto her: ‘Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
וְה֤וּא יִהְיֶה֙ פֶּ֣רֶא אָדָ֔ם יָד֣וֹ בַכֹּ֔ל וְיַ֥ד כֹּ֖ל בּ֑וֹוְעַל־פְּנֵ֥י כָל־אֶחָ֖יו יִשְׁכֹּֽן
And he shall be a
wild ass of a man ( pere’āḏām ): his hand shall be with every man, and every man’s hand with him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.’
If we look for the direct arabic cognate for the hebrew פֶּ֣רֶא pere in arabic it is ﻓَﺮَﺍﺀ
fara ’
LANE Arabic-English Lexicon give the following entry for ﻓَﺮَﺍﺀ
ﺍﻓﺮﺍﺀ . (M, K.) Hence the saying, ﻛﻞ ﺍﻟﺼﻴﺪ ﻓﻰ ﺟﻮﻑ ﺍﻟﻔﺮﺍ [Every kind of game is in the belly (or might enter into the belly) of the wild ass];
This archaic saying which has been recorded in the hadith of prophet Muhammad indicates the nuance of the term “wild ass” it denotes superiority as what the saying mean is every animal is inferior to the wild ass, as though the wild ass were a carnivore able to devour whatever it chooses.
However there are several roots in Hebrew that begin with the two consonants פ and ר (P and R) and interestingly those are connected with the concept of fertility and fruits of nature. Obviously such concepts in Hebrew like in other languages are also used figuratively: the Hebrew פֶּ֣רֶא pere can also be from the same root with the word
פָּרָא para meaning “fruit”.
This option is very much possible since the hebrew text did not use vocalisation from the beginning and diacritical markings was introduced later.
The usage of word פָּרָא mis found in Hosea 13:15 , we read:
… כִּ֣י ה֔וּא בֵּ֥ן אַחִ֖ים יַפְרִ֑יא יָב֣וֹא קָדִים֩ ר֨וּחַ יְהוָ֜המִמִּדְבָּ֣ר
Though He will be the most fruitful (yaphri) of all his brothers, the east wind–a blast from the LORD–will arise in the desert.
Here in the above passage יַפְרִ֑יא yaphri , the stem could be פרא (p-r -‘) as well as פרה ( p-r -h )
Something fruitful makes much more sense if instead of “wild ass human being” it may simply be another way of stating what appears unambiguously in Genesis 17:20,
וּֽלְיִשְׁמָעֵאל֮ שְׁמַעְתִּיךָ֒ הִנֵּ֣ה ׀ בֵּרַ֣כְתִּי אֹתֹ֗ו וְהִפְרֵיתִ֥י אֹתֹ֛ו וְהִרְבֵּיתִ֥י אֹתֹ֖ו בִּמְאֹ֣ד מְאֹ֑ד שְׁנֵים־עָשָׂ֤ר נְשִׂיאִם֙ יֹולִ֔יד וּנְתַתִּ֖יו לְגֹ֥וי גָּדֹֽול׃
And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him
fruitful (wehiphreithi ) and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
Having thus dealt with those possible hebrew roots Genesis 16:12 should read:
And he shall be a fruitful man: his hand shall be with every man, and every man’s hand with him; and he shall dwell in the face of all his brethren.’
Note :
Some Christian/jews translation render בַכֹּ֔ל
bekol to
“against every man” this is dishonest because nothing in the original text indicate as such , בַ is simply “with”
Septuagint Translation of Genesis 16:12
Interesting to observe that Septuagint version for the term “wild ass of a man” is ἔσται ἄγροικος ἄνθρωπος estai agroikos anthrōpos
We read
12 οὗτος ἔσται ἄγροικος ἄνθρωπος αἱ χεῖρες αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ πάντας, καὶ αἱ χεῖρες πάντων ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν, καὶ κατὰ πρόσωπον πάντων τῶν ἀδελφῶν αὐτοῦ κατοικήσει.
Septuagint specialist Robert J. V. Hiebert, Ph.D. renders the greek phrase ἔσται ἄγροικος ἄνθρωπος estai agroikos anthrōpos , as “he shall be a rustic man ” this means a countrymen living in the rural areas or wilderness [4]
This translation reflects a slightly different reading from the Hebrew פּרא to possibly hebrew variant of בָּרָא bar’
Strong’s Concordance
bar: (an open) field
Original Word: בָּרָא
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: bar
Phonetic Spelling: (bar)
Short Definition: field
Here the word field possibly refer to Vorlage reading ברא means “country”.
Interestingly enough Greek text suggest that it is the land which is wild rather than the man i.e. Ishmael.
If the Vorlage of the Septuagint had ברא, instead of the Masoretes פּרא , , two Arabic cognates are of great interest.
The first is ﺑَﺮّ ( barra ) Which means
“devoted and righteous [towards his father or parents, and towards God and all kind of good and affectionate and gentle in behaviour, towards his kindred; and kind, or good, in his dealings with strangers” (Lane Lexicon).
So the angel’s announcement to Hagar that her son would become ﺍﻟﺒﺮ (the righteous) may well have assured her that her son would show her due filial piety and manifest godly devotion. Such a prediction would have been a welcomed promise.
This makes more perfect sense than the angel would announce to her that her son would become a “wild ass” who would continually fight with his brothers such as the predominant christian and jewish translations.
Second Arabic cognate ﺑﺮﺃ (bara ’) which means
“free, secure, safe, free from disease, distress or debt” (Lane Lexicon),
This could provide further insight into what may well have been a double entendre in the original tradition. For the slave woman to be promised that her son would be free would have been great news, helping her make her own bondage bearable.
The angel’s word to Hagar that Ishmael would be פּרא may not have been understood by Hagar as meaning “an onager man” or “wild ass human being.”


In conclusion
Brief philological analysis of the Hebrew texts of Genesis 16:12 using possible Hebrew roots and definitions, most of which have survived as cognates in classical Arabic. These include:
ברא “forest, wilderness, country”
בר “filial piety, kind to strangers, devotion to God”
ברא “free, secure, safe”
פּרא “to bear fruit, to have progeny”
Now it becomes a little easier to understand just what the angel said to Hagar and what it was that the narrator actually said about Ishmael. Far from being negative, derogatory, or racist, the words about Ishmael and the Ishmaelites in Genesis were laudatory and compatible with the divine promise to Abraham that, through his progeny, “all the families of the earth shall be blessed” (Gen 12:3).

plappville:
Some Ishmaelites through Islam are fighting against the rest of the world. Daesh is threating to attack Washington, France and Italy. These nations you attack feed you, give your children free education, free accommodation, etc. The same people you run to for refuge are the same people you are killing. Muslims be reasonable and question the Qur'an. It's evil and should be questioned.

They threaten to attack the west but the people they attack are the Muslims. The people with greatest casualties are the Muslims.

Using my previous post you should check the
THE SEPTUAGINT TRANSLATION
You shall bear a son and call his name Ishmael . . . He shall be a countryman, his hands on all, and the hands of all on him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.


Or read the book
"CLARIFYING BAFFLING BIBLICAL PASSAGES CHAPTER THREE “ISHMAEL: A PEACE MAKER" GENESIS 16:10 –12” by a Bible scholar Thomas F. McDaniel, Ph.D.

I am sure you don't care to read because. You aren't interested in the truth. Well keep showing ignorance.
Just to help release you from the Ignorance the Septuagint translation of the old testament is a translation of the Hebrew Bible and some related texts into Koine Greek . As the primary Greek translation of the Old Testament , it is also called the Greek Old Testament . This translation is quoted a number of times in the
New Testament , particularly in Pauline epistles, and also by the Apostolic Fathers and later Greek Church Fathers .

IAYUSUF:


They threaten to attack the west but the people they attack are the Muslims. The people with greatest casualties are the Muslims.

Using my previous post you should check the
THE SEPTUAGINT TRANSLATION
You shall bear a son and call his name Ishmael . . . He shall be a countryman, his hands on all, and the hands of all on him, and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.


Or read the book
"CLARIFYING BAFFLING BIBLICAL PASSAGES CHAPTER THREE “ISHMAEL: A PEACE MAKER" GENESIS 16:10 –12” by a Bible scholar Thomas F. McDaniel, Ph.D.

I am sure you don't care to read because. You aren't interested in the truth. Well keep showing ignorance.
Just to help release you from the Ignorance the Septuagint translation of the old testament is a translation of the Hebrew Bible and some related texts into Koine Greek . As the primary Greek translation of the Old Testament , it is also called the Greek Old Testament . This translation is quoted a number of times in the
New Testament , particularly in Pauline epistles, and also by the Apostolic Fathers and later Greek Church Fathers .

Islam is a scam to you guys. Pathetic! !!

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

This verse call on Muhammad to fight a Jihad fight. There are several ones that call on Muslims to do thesame....

Quran 8.65 O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand

A Jihad verse for Muslims...no wonder the Paris terrorists said Jihad is not only for Syria but also for France..