Quote from Noetic -

I would like to open a new thread to in the very least attempt to explain the concept of freewill and predestination from God's perspective (with regards to my understanding) . . . .and would like u to also highlight any posers/discrepiances that u might find disturbing in the bible.

There. I've done it for you. Oya fire.

For other readers the issue is the compatibility of the doctrines of Free Will and Pre-destination.

We can perhaps use Judas Iscariot as an example.

Did he have free will?

Was he excercising free will in betraying Jesus?

How so, since the betrayal was necessary to bring about the already predicted will of the omnipotent Father? Could he really have excercised his "free will" and refused to betray Jesus - thereby scuttling the plans of the Omnipotent Father?

I am really interested in this cos its an area that confuses me.

I believe in some level of destiny myself.

If that's the case has the script of my life already been written?

Am i just going through the motions and imagining myself free?

Goodness me!How can noetic talk from GOD'S perspective?Does he know him that well?Noetic can only talk from his own perspective and not anybody else's, abegi!

Anyway, make una fire on.

Deep Sight:

We can perhaps use Judas Iscariot as an example.

Did he have free will?

Was he excercising free will in betraying Jesus?

How so, since the betrayal was necessary to bring about the already predicted will of the omnipotent Father? Could he really have excercised his "free will" and refused to betray Jesus - thereby scuttling the plans of the Omnipotent Father?

the answer to your question in highlights = Yes.

The betrayal was not absolutely necessary to bring about the will of God . . . without Judas, Christ would still have died on the cross.

jagunlabi:

Goodness me![b]How can noetic talk from GOD'S perspective?Does he know him that well?[/b]Noetic can only talk from his own perspective and not anybody else's, abegi!

Anyway, make una fire on.

but unfortunately that is what deep sight is guilty of as well. Its no surprise you cant see it.

Deep Sight:

_{You never know, he might be Divine.}

Abeg, noetic is not divine, but a wretched human being, according to his religious doctrine.His religion does not permit him to be anything else but a wretch in need of forgiveness and  redemption.

davidylan:

the answer to your question in highlights = Yes.

The betrayal was not absolutely necessary to bring about the will of God . . . without Judas, Christ would still have died on the cross.

Very speculative indeed.How would he have pulled it off without Judas?Was there a plan B mentioned in the bible?If there is one then show it to me.

davidylan:

the answer to your question in highlights = Yes.

The betrayal was not absolutely necessary to bring about the will of God . . . without Judas, Christ would still have died on the cross.

That is fine and well understood David.

But then factor the fact of its prediction into the equation.

Could we say it was merely knowledge of what Judas would use his freewill to do -

Or given the will of God that such would happen to Jesus. . . was it something already sealed?

I don't know, I am just asking.

But the real question is this - Is pre-destination real? If it is real, how does it work out with Freewill?

Was Judas predestined to do what he did?

davidylan:

but unfortunately that is what deep sight is guilty of as well. Its no surprise you cant see it.

Well, okay.From my own perspective, the divine is in all of us, so we all have a bit of God's perspective when we air our POVs.So, i stand corrected.Make una fire on with una divine perspectives.

jagunlabi:

Very speculative indeed.How would he have pulled it off without Judas?Was there a plan B mentioned in the bible?[/b]If there is one then show it to me.

1. Include spaces in your writing, it helps make it more intelligible.

2. The bible did not need to mention a "plan B" simply to satisfy the illogical rantings of those who are determined never to believe.

3. Actually Christ could have been killed TWICE before his betrayal by Judas and both instances are mentioned explicitly in the bible . . .

- a. John 10:31 [b]Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,

- b. John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself , and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by

Sometimes all it takes is for many of you to read the bible you purport to denigrate.

But the real question is this - Is pre-destination real? If it is real, how does it work out with Freewill?

Deep Sight:

That is fine and well understood David.

But then factor the fact of its prediction into the equation.

Could we say it was merely knowledge of what Judas would use his freewill to do -

Or given the will of God that such would happen to Jesus. . . was it something already sealed?

You've already given the answer. That Christ had a foreknowledge of what Judas would do does not mean Judas had no control over his own actions. Dont confuse foreknowledge with a lack of free will.

Deep Sight:

But the real question is this - Is pre-destination real? If it is real, how does it work out with Freewill?

Was Judas predestined to do what he did?

Romans 8 answers your question.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

In brief - God knew (foreknowledge) those who will, OF THEIR OWN FREEWILL, accept Him as personal Lord and Saviour way before they were even born. For these folks he already PREDESTINED them to be conformed to His own image (i.e. this is simply a consequence of their decision to follow the Lord).

Judas wasnt "predestined" to be a betrayer . . . he chose to do so and die in his sins.

jagunlabi:

Well, okay.From my own perspective, the divine is in all of us, so we all have a bit of God's perspective when we air our POVs.So, i stand corrected.Make una fire on with una divine perspectives.

Lets hack back to your earlier question of noetic . . .

How can jagunlabi talk from GOD'S perspective? Does he know him that well? Jagunlabi can only talk from his own perspective and not anybody else's, abegi!

Hypocrite comes to mind here.

By the way, what "god" are you talking about here? When did he tell you he gave you his perspective? Perspective on what?

Thanks David.

But there is a host of scripture that makes it plain that God does actually predestinate certain things - These are just two that come to mind -

“The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; / he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases” (Proverbs 21:1).

“The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, / before you were born I set you apart; / I appointed you as a prophet to the nations’” (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

There are others. What freewill did Pharoah have when God was "hardening his heart?"

Clearly, God had determined the way certain people would act beforehand, and he did so in his sovereignty as God.

Now if this is the case, what freewill really exists?

Deep Sight:

Thanks David.

But there is a host of scripture that makes it plain that God does actually predestinate certain things - These are just two that come to mind -

“The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; / he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases” (Proverbs 21:1).

That is why God is omnipotent . . . He created man and reserves the right to determine the course of his life as He wills. However the ultimate decision on whether you wish to accept Christ or not depends solely on you.

God appointed Saul - but it was Saul's ultimate decision to disobey God's specific instructions that determined his fate.

Ahab is another example.

Deep Sight:

“The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, / before you were born I set you apart; / I appointed you as a prophet to the nations’” (Jeremiah 1:4-5).

the important phrase is outlined in bold . . . God knew the kind of man Jeremiah would be and thus decided to use Him as a vessel. I'm sure God could have used someone else . . . there was nothing physically special with Jeremiah. It was God's foreknowledge of the choices Jeremiah would make in the future that marked him out for His work.

Deep Sight:

There are others. What freewill did Pharoah have when God was "hardening his heart?"

The bible says that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" . . . but this was NOT against Pharaoh's will in the first place. Pharaoh was CLEARLY against the jews leaving, never recognised the God of the jews as the almighty anyway . . .

Deep Sight:

Clearly, God had determined the way certain people would act beforehand, and he did so in his sovereignty as God.

Now if this is the case, what freewill really exists?

Clearly this is your own excuse not to believe in the gospel of the cross.

^^^ This has nothing to do with belief in the gospel.

I am genuienley trying to understand predestination and freewill.

Do you believe in predestination?

OP,

To understand these things you need to be aware of the ff;

There is the spiritual and the physical.

The spiritual controls the physical

Everybody in this world is playing a pre-determined role in the physical world, but that predetermination is done at another level- the spiritual. Therefore in his own physical or earthly level, he has free will, but in another level he has been programmmed by GOd to certain limits. Once we grab the basics,the rest is easy. That is why christians who fail to understand concepts like re-incarnation are still drinking milk and will remain children.

Deep Sight:

^^^ This has nothing to do with belief in the gospel.

I am genuienley trying to understand predestination and freewill.

Do you believe in predestination?

obviously you havent read a thing i said.

Marlbron:

OP,

To understand these things you need to be aware of the ff;

There is the spiritual and the physical.

The spiritual controls the physical

Everybody in this world is playing a pre-determined role in the physical world, but that predetermination is done at another level- the spiritual. Therefore in his own physical or earthly level, he has free will, but in another level he has been programmmed by GOd to certain limits. Once we grab the basics,the rest is easy. That is why christians who fail to understand concepts like re-incarnation are still drinking milk and will remain children.

I completely disagree with this as it has no basis in scripture. Re-incarnation is not a biblical concept.

Predestination is not the same as "pre-determined". As used in context of romans 8, predestination is God setting aside for His purpose, those He KNOWS (foreknows before the begining of time) would strive to search for Him and serve Him based on their own individual choice.

jagunlabi:

Goodness me![b]How can noetic talk from GOD'S perspective?Does he know him that well?[/b]Noetic can only talk from his own perspective and not anybody else's, abegi!

Anyway, make una fire on.

I am sure there was something in bracket in that quote that read with regards to my understanding . . .but of course I know God, but not up to 1% of Him.

Man always has many options that have been pre-determined in God, and the options are weighted differently from best to worst.

Man has the free will to make a choice but he is limited in time, so he does not know the exact choice he will make until he has made it. God on the other hand, stands outside the limitations of time to see the man's FINAL choice at the time the man is yet to make a choice.

In summary, God is pre-determined about man's free will choice.

Predestination is a concept that's so acceptable to most christians. Free will server as an escape route when they are faced with questions the find either hard to digest or answer. Hitler killed 6million of god's favorite people and god refused to intervene when in the past he had time for trivial stuffs like tattoos and premarital sex. Here is the thing,were 6m people destined to die from a german maniac or the german's free will carry the day?i think these are 2 incompatible concepts.

Marlbron:

OP,

To understand these things you need to be aware of the ff;

There is the spiritual and the physical.

The spiritual controls the physical

Everybody in this world is playing a pre-determined role in the physical world, but that predetermination is done at another level- the spiritual. Therefore in his own physical or earthly level, he has free will, but in another level he has been programmmed by GOd to certain limits. Once we grab the basics,the rest is easy. That is why christians who fail to understand concepts like re-incarnation are still drinking [b]milk and will remain children.[/b]

please throw more light . . .how is the concept of re-incarnation reconcilable to xtianity?

Deep Sight:

^^^

I am genuienley trying to understand predestination and freewill.

Do you believe in predestination?

Hi Deepsight. How are you? Hope you are kool. Pre-destination and free will are compatible. Indeed what people regard as pre-destination is the reciprocal actions arising from their free choices in the past or even in the present. The seeming contradiction arises because the recipient of the blessing or misfortune is not conscious of the chain of choices as well as the travel of these choices through both the visible and invisible worlds of God. Hence since he is unaware of the choices that resulted in the blessings or misfortune, he regards it as arbitrarily and thus predetermined by a source independent of himself. But what I said above is just a scratch at the surface. A deeper insight is only possible if we know the origin of free will. Free will resides in the spirit, it is an inherent characteristic of the spirit and it is an ability given by God to the human spirit for his development and maturity. Free will simply means the choice to choose but once a choice is made, the man is irrevocably bound to the consequences of his decision for only through tasting the consequences of his decision will he recognize whether they are good or evil and adjust himself accordingly. Thus God gave man the absolute freedom to use his free will to raise himself to the kingdom of God or dig his grave into the kingdom of darkness. The free will is so free that man can and indeed uses it to oppose God and his will. Now the actions and events which are physically visible are only the after effects of a spiritual decision and it is the spiritual decisions which can draw on the neutral power of God vibrating in creation to bring about forms, first intuitive forms, motive forms, imagination, thoughts, words and then the physical action. These various forms are linked to there producer and then to gigantic masses of similar forms in various planes of creations. In other words the forms I mentioned above are connected to power centers from which the draw homogeneous strength. Thus envy, lust, gossip, slander and similar things have power centers  and so do love, compassion, purity, heroism. It is these forms that is the tapestry of mans fate and determines what returns to him as blessing or curse according to the laws of God. Every second, man exercise his free will and thus new threads are constantly added to his tapestry of fate and thus altering the outcome. If one looks deeply to what is said above then it will be clear that if a man indulges in one passion or the other, let us say envy, he is surrounded by envy and connected to massive power centers of envy such that it is very easy for one who can survey these connections to prophesy that acts of envy will spring forth from this man 100 years from now, or even in a future incarnation on earth. But as I said new threads are constantly added that change the colour of the outcome, mitigate or even in some cases abrogate it.  Let us take a man who 2000 years ago mocked and laughed at the son of God as he was being crucified. The threads of fate are knotted that some where in subsahara Africa, this man reincarnates completely oblivious of what happened 2000 years. A consequence of this personal mockery or inward satisfaction at the physical suffering of son of God is that at 30 years of age, the man will suddenly develop the wound marks of stigmata and experience the events of 2000 YEARS. If such a man have not inwardly changed since then but relishes in the suffering of others, then certainly at 30 YEARS, he will develop genuine stigmata that defies all medical treatment. But it may well happen that in the course of 2000 YEARS prior to his reincarnation as a west African, this man has inwardly changed and may have even recognized his personal evil and instead of hate, he has love. Then the rays of love will be added to his tapestry of fate and the power of love can mitigate or abrogate the appearance of stigmata. The spiritual currents retuning stigmata to him will surely come but they meet a man who is no more evil but pure and thus cannot penetrate, this stigmata currents will only be repelled back to the homogeneous centre without the man being harmed. Instead, an apparently symbolic action will happen which he is not conscious of in the earthly sense. Thus at his 30TH birthday, spiritual guidance of which he is unaware in the physical sense will guide him to visit the trauma section in a hospital to donate a pant of blood or give help to a neighbor etc. These apparently meaningless symbolic activity severs completely the knot of the stigmata currents and such a man is redeemed. Thus what would have severed the head of one may just remove his cap, or a tragic accident that may have killed may simply manifest as a burst tyre or simply a help to a fellow driver who is stranded on the road. Such is the incomprehensible love of God which allows humans to raise themselves back to the kingdom of God even when they are buried in the deepest darkness. This earth life is just almost an infinitesimal but important spot in our existence and only very little snapshots of the consequences of our free will are evident, hence the dilemma of people on how there can be free will when somethings appear to be predestined. The love and justice of God can only be understood as far as we realize that we have been on earth several times and also lived several times in the so called beyond and that what happens to us takes into account our entire existence and not just what we are physically conscious in this present incarnation. Reincarnation is essential to understanding the working of God in his Justice and Love. Indeed there is predestination but not by God or other creatures but by man himself using the power of God through the exercise of his free willl. Because we use the power of God, we get blessing and resurrection to the kingdom of God if we apply it to pure channels but if we abuse this power of God and draw it into impure purposes, we will finally lose the ability to draw on the power of God and thus cease to exist as a conscious being. Man has the key to this power of God but this power of God is not in man himself as many mystics or occultists seem to think because they do see only the effects but not the source of the effects. This key to open or unlock  the power of God is the free will. In addition, this power of God is neutral but the application of it to good or evil "creations" is dependent on the free will. If this power of God is applied purely, then it is reinvigorated and by a process of radiation cycling moves hiigher and higher even right to the kingdom of God, thus forming an invisible flight of steps drawing the human wanderer back to the kingdom of God. If however this power of God is applied for impure purposes, the union destroys itself releasing the entrapped neutral power and in the destruction, the originator man is also destroyed in the process. This explain while in the end the good will always triumph over evil and the supreme will of God reigns. The apparent battle between good and evil is only in the interval between the beginning and the end. The same explanation that applies to individuals can also be used to throw light into group karma, national karma, prophecies and indeed cosmic events. Stay blessed.

1) The Free Will defense is NOT supported by the Bible. The God in the Bible is much more concerned with obedience than he is with free will. The word free will as Christians use it does NOT appear in the bible. It is just one of the clause used to explain absurdity and some of the hypothesis and claims of the religion.

2) The Christian who uses the Free will defense must sacrifice a belief in the existence of heaven. Unless they want to claim that evil happens in heaven??. . . .I do not believe in any god therefore the argument is invalid. In the animal world, it is the parents who train their offspring to make the right decisions and with a human brain, that is possibly of a higher decision making organ, we are able to learn right from wrong. The free will argument is used by Christians only as an explanation to the problem of evil.

3) Predestination is a very clear biblical concept and that concept alone destroys the free will argument. The bible it self talks about some people created to be so that they should be destroyed by the God of the bible, how then does that fit with the free will concept?

@davidylan

davidylan:

You've already given the answer. That Christ had a foreknowledge of what Judas would do does not mean Judas had no control over his own actions. Dont confuse foreknowledge with a lack of free will.

If Christ had had a foreknowledge of an event, and that event which he had the foreknowledge of did not come to pass, then he never really had any foreknowledge in the first place, he probably only had an assumed knowledge.  In other words, if he indeed knew that Judas was going to betray him and wasn't just guessing, then Judas was in fact bound to betray him.  If Judas really had any freewill at all, and had exercised this freewill to choose not to betray Christ, then that would have proven Christ's acclaimed foreknowledge to be a farce.

davidylan:

Judas wasnt "predestined" to be a betrayer . . . he chose to do so and die in his sins.

Well, we have reason to believe that Judas was indeed predestined to be a betrayer.  Jesus hinted at this in Matthew 26:24 -

The Son of man goes as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. (NKJV)

What Christ was saying here in essence was that there was absolutely no way the person could have decided to not betray him.  The only other option was for such person not to have been born at all.

davidylan:

That is why God is omnipotent . . . He created man and reserves the right to determine the course of his life as He wills.

If God reserves the right to determine the course of anyone's life, and he actually goes ahead to exercise this right, then such person does not have any freewill.  Instead, the person is doing only that which God wants them to do.

davidylan:

The bible says that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" . . . but this was NOT against Pharaoh's will in the first place. Pharaoh was CLEARLY against the jews leaving, never recognised the God of the jews as the almighty anyway . . .

This particular case of God hardening Pharaoh's heart is one that I have special interest in, and is usually my number one reference in the freewill argument (Deep Sight beat me to it).   In fact, it transcends just freewill alone, and also puts to question, the morality of Yahweh.  Why would an all-loving God choose to harden someone's heart, thereby leading them to their destruction, when softening their heart would yield the same desired result (letting His people go), while at the same time, possibly bringing the Pharaoh to salvation?   Well, let's leave that for now.  Freewill.

God hardening Pharaoh's heart may not have been against Pharaoh's will as you said (actually, it WAS against his will. . . no one likes to be manipulated), but it completely ruled out any and every probable iota of possibility of the Pharaoh having a change of heart.  That is, the Pharaoh was now completely left with absolutely NO choice but to go on keeping the people of Israel captive.   His freewill (to decide otherwise) had been taken from him.

mazaje:

1) The Free Will defense is NOT supported by the Bible. The God in the Bible is much more concerned with obedience than he is with free will. The word free will as Christians use it does NOT appear in the bible. It is just one of the clause used to explain absurdity and some of the hypothesis and claims of the religion.

You are very wrong.

How do u explain what happened in the garden of eden? Eve chose by her own volition to accept the serpents counsel and eat the fruit. . . . .the same way u chose to post on this forum by ur own FREE WILL.
The garden of Eden story shows clearly that God sets the parameters of possibilities . . . .by stating the things that would be (consequences) if the fruit is eaten or not eaten. What God says here is called a word of wisdom.

Eve exercised free will and so did u.

2) The Christian who uses the Free will defense must sacrifice a belief in the existence of heaven. Unless they want to claim that evil happens in heaven??. . . .I do not believe in any god therefore the argument is invalid. In the animal world, it is the parents who train their offspring to make the right decisions and with a human brain, that is possibly of a higher decision making organ, we are able to learn right from wrong. The free will argument is used by Christians only as an explanation to the problem of evil.

why must the existence of heaven be sacrificed to support free-will?

3) Predestination is a very clear biblical concept and that concept alone destroys the free will argument. The bible it self talks about some people created to be so that they should be destroyed by the God of the bible, how then does that fit with the free will concept?

1. predestination is not in doubt. but both predestination and free-will go hand in hand.

2. If you believe God created all things . . . .is it not up to Him to determine the purpose of His creations?

According to the Bible:


[size=14pt]God determines who is going to heaven[/size]

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate,  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

"He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

"God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

[size=14pt]and who is going to hell. [/size]

"God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation." -- Jude 4

[size=14pt]There's nothing you can do about it.[/size]

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. ,  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22



[size=18pt]CASE DISMISSED[/size]

court!

David,

Any talk about reincarnation will derail this thread, so open a new thread and I'll chip in or see other threads that dealt with the topic. What I see is that with an open mind, all can come to the accurate knowledge of the truth and if we know the truth, it sets us free.

Noetic,

The garden of Eden experience could convince a novice that it was just a free will show. Such a person may understand it carnally as an expression of free will, but there is more to it, if you will receive it. All that happened there was the will of God for Adam. If Adam had not sinned, how will he have carried out the injunction from God to multiply and fill the earth in his ignorant state? That is why a bad situation to you is actually not bad to God, because it is meant to achieve a certain predestined action which you may not be privy to. Your not being aware of it does not make it bad! It is an insult to the omniscience , omnipresent and omnipotent being to imagine that any event in the universe happens without his approval!

Marlbron:

Noetic,

The garden of Eden experience could convince a novice that it was just a free will show. Such a person may understand it carnally as an expression of free will, but there is more to it, if you will receive it. All that happened there was the will of God for Adam. If Adam had not sinned, how will he have carried out the injunction from God to multiply and fill the earth in his ignorant state? That is why a bad situation to you is actually not bad to God, because it is meant to achieve a certain predestined action which you may not be privy to. Your not being aware of it does not make it bad! It is an insult to the omniscience , omnipresent and omnipotent being to imagine that any event in the universe happens without his approval!

By free-will God gave Adam two choices (a) To stay in the world of God depicted as the garden where all things that exists are in the service of man OR (b) The outside unknown world, where man has to fight and battle for his own survival.
What God did was to give Adam a word of wisdom. A word of wisdom does not refer to predestination . . . .it just informs u of the consequences of ur actions or inactions. Adam chose to live in the world b . . . .and thats where we find ourselves today.

I also believe that living in the garden of eden does not prevent Adam and Eve from being fruitful and multiplying. Rather, it was unfortunate that they did not reproduce while in the garden. . .Remember when satan tempted Jesus, He claimed to own everything on earth and promised to give it to Jesus. Jesus did not refute that statement from satan, but said that u shall not tempt the Lord ur God. have u ever taught about the implication of Jesus response?

Noetic,

Freewill is what you can define on the earth plain or on the level of our physical existence. But there is a level other than the physical where all things have already been determined. That level is the spiritual level. Christ or God spoke as a man (physical level) but also spoke as God (spiritual level). Thus all things in the physical mirror what had happened in the spiritual. Otherwise, God is not God!