The bible clearly states in Ephesians 2 vv 5,8 including many other verses of the scriptures that salvation is by faith in Christ, that is, if we believe on Jesus and his work for us on the cross we then we have eternal life.

According to the scripture, eternal life does not just mean to live for ever but eternal life is God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

When we believe on Jesus our past sins are forgiven, we are given a new status, then we are recreated through our union with God and because we are united with God we have eternal life

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


why I do not believe once saved always saved
Most of the time, the argument from those who believe in OSAS
Is that Jesus said he would not lose anyone the father has given to him and the book of Romans that said that nothing can separate us from the love of God yes only if we abide in him.


There is a problem if we isolate a single verse and try to build a doctrine around it.
Take this verse for example,

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Some one might build a doctrine around this verse by saying because Jesus said whatsoever you ask in his name you will recieve, but in the book of James we are told that it is only when we are in his will.
Although Jesus does not state the condition in that verse but it exist in another verse and dont also forget that when the disciples were trying to cast out demons, they could not even when the used the name of Jesus until Jesus told them that they need to fast.
You see that it is dangerous to build a doctrine around a single verse.

Through out scriptures, there are warnings, examples on the possibility of believers falling away from the faith.
Unbelievers can fall away from faith because the never had it in the first place.

The condition for security is to abide in Christ.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

As long as we remain in Christ we are saved and washed from our sins.
For example if we refuse to acknowledge our sins or confess them to God it will be clear we have departed from the truth. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life, so if we are not in his truth we will be cut off from him.
If we do not abide in his doctrine/teaching/commandments then we have departed from him, this does not mean sinless perfection but as long as we abide in him the Spirit will help us to grow into maturity and we would be cleanse from even stain of sin and unrighteousness so that when Jesus comes he would receive us. Jesus is coming for a clean and spotless church, he is not coming to die for sins again he has already done that.

If you want to be prepared for his coming(the rapture) or to end up with him after this earthly life, my friend abide in him.

For believers abide in Christ, for unbelievers believe on Jesus christ, and follow him.
Remain Rapture ready.


If a man does not abide in Christ, does it not mean he was not saved? yes I believe so, because those who are genuinely saved will continue in Jesus.

solite3:
The bible clearly states in Ephesians 2 vv 5,8 including many other verses of the scriptures that salvation is by faith in Christ, that is, if we believe on Jesus and his work for us on the cross we then we have eternal life.

According to the scripture, eternal life does not just mean to live for every but eternal life is God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

When we believe on Jesus our past sins are forgiven, we are given a new status, then we are recreated through our union with God and because we are united with God we have eternal life

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


why I do not believe once saved always saved
Most of the time, the argument from those who believe in OSAS
Is that Jesus said he would not lose anyone the father has given to him and the book of Romans that said that nothing can separate us from the love of God yes only if we abide in him.


There is a problem if we isolate a single verse and try to build a doctrine around it.
Take this verse for example,

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Some one might build a doctrine around this verse by saying because Jesus said whatsoever you ask in his name you will recieve, but in the book of James we are told that it is only when we are in his will.
Although Jesus does not state the condition in that verse but it exist in another verse and dont also forget that when the disciples were trying to cast out demons, they could not even when the used the name of Jesus until Jesus told them that they need to fast.
You see that it is dangerous to build a doctrine around a single verse.

Through out scriptures, there are warnings, examples on the possibility of believers falling away from the faith.
Unbelievers can fall away from faith because the never had it in the first place.

The condition for security is to abide in Christ.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

As long as we remain in Christ we are saved and washed from our sins.
For example if we refuse to acknowledge our sins or confess them to God it will be clear we have departed from the truth. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life, so if we are not in his truth we will be cut off from him.
If we do not abide in his doctrine/teaching/commandments then we have departed from him, this does not mean sinless perfection but as long as we abide in him the Spirit will help us to grow into maturity and we would be cleanse from even stain of sin and unrighteousness so that when Jesus comes he would receive us. Jesus is coming for a clean and spotless church, he is not coming to die for sins again he has already done that.

If you want to be prepared for his coming(the rapture) or to end up with him after this earthly life, my friend abide in him.

For believers abide in Christ, for unbelievers believe on Jesus christ, and follow him.
Remain Rapture ready.

Thou believest; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

solite3:
The bible clearly states in Ephesians 2 vv 5,8 including many other verses of the scriptures that salvation is by faith in Christ, that is, if we believe on Jesus and his work for us on the cross we then we have eternal life.

According to the scripture, eternal life does not just mean to live for every but eternal life is God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

When we believe on Jesus our past sins are forgiven, we are given a new status, then we are recreated through our union with God and because we are united with God we have eternal life

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


why I do not believe once saved always saved
Most of the time, the argument from those who believe in OSAS
Is that Jesus said he would not lose anyone the father has given to him and the book of Romans that said that nothing can separate us from the love of God yes only if we abide in him.

Okay.
So, how do you abide in him.

solite3:
The bible clearly states in Ephesians 2 vv 5,8 including many other verses of the scriptures that salvation is by faith in Christ, that is, if we believe on Jesus and his work for us on the cross we then we have eternal life.

According to the scripture, eternal life does not just mean to live for every but eternal life is God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

When we believe on Jesus our past sins are forgiven, we are given a new status, then we are recreated through our union with God and because we are united with God we have eternal life

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


why I do not believe once saved always saved
Most of the time, the argument from those who believe in OSAS
Is that Jesus said he would not lose anyone the father has given to him and the book of Romans that said that nothing can separate us from the love of God yes only if we abide in him.


There is a problem if we isolate a single verse and try to build a doctrine around it.
Take this verse for example,

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Some one might build a doctrine around this verse by saying because Jesus said whatsoever you ask in his name you will recieve, but in the book of James we are told that it is only when we are in his will.
Although Jesus does not state the condition in that verse but it exist in another verse and dont also forget that when the disciples were trying to cast out demons, they could not even when the used the name of Jesus until Jesus told them that they need to fast.
You see that it is dangerous to build a doctrine around a single verse.

Through out scriptures, there are warnings, examples on the possibility of believers falling away from the faith.
Unbelievers can fall away from faith because the never had it in the first place.

The condition for security is to abide in Christ.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

As long as we remain in Christ we are saved and washed from our sins.
For example if we refuse to acknowledge our sins or confess them to God it will be clear we have departed from the truth. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life, so if we are not in his truth we will be cut off from him.
If we do not abide in his doctrine/teaching/commandments then we have departed from him, this does not mean sinless perfection but as long as we abide in him the Spirit will help us to grow into maturity and we would be cleanse from even stain of sin and unrighteousness so that when Jesus comes he would receive us. Jesus is coming for a clean and spotless church, he is not coming to die for sins again he has already done that.

If you want to be prepared for his coming(the rapture) or to end up with him after this earthly life, my friend abide in him.

For believers abide in Christ, for unbelievers believe on Jesus christ, and follow him.
Remain Rapture ready.

What's the difference between this and the old testament?

In the old testament, their sins were forgiven whenever the high priest makes supplication for them.

What's the point of Jesus dying and resurrecting if the old and the new are pretty much the same? I thought the new testament sacrifice for sin is once for all?

Please explain this passage in Hebrews. What was the writer talking about?

Hebrews 10:10-14 KJV
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I'm ready to learn. Give me the full explanation like I'm a student of bible school

hupernikao:


Okay.
So, how do you abide in him.

To abide in Christ means to continue in his teaching.
I believe those who are born of God will keep his teaching.
I believe the bible teach conditional security but only those who are born of God can meet such conditions.

Funaki:


What's the difference between this and the old testament?

In the old testament sacrifices must be made continuously for the remision of sins.

In the old testament, their sins were forgiven whenever the high priest makes supplication for them.

What's the point of Jesus dying and resurrecting if the old and the new are pretty much the same? I thought the new testament sacrifice for sin is once for all?

the sacrifice has being made once and for all unlike in the old testament when it is done repeatedly.

Jesus is still the high priest in heavenly temple, Hence we are told to come to the throne of mercy so our need could be met.

Please explain this passage in Hebrews. What was the writer talking about?

Hebrews 10:10-14 KJV
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I'm ready to learn. Give me the full explanation like I'm a student of bible school

In the old testament, the high priest stand ministering before the altar he had to make atonement and confess the sins of the previous year, He repeats this every year but in the new testament Christ offer's himself as sin offering once for all and offer eternal forgiveness to the past sin. This is the perfection he is talking about.

But it does not mean we cannot sin but John said if any sin he has an advocate with the father Jesus the righteous, and also.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanse us from every sin as long as we are in the light as Jesus is.

I do not agree with the OSAS that there is no condition to security but what the bible teaches is that there is condition.

solite3:
The bible clearly states in Ephesians 2 vv 5,8 including many other verses of the scriptures that salvation is by faith in Christ, that is, if we believe on Jesus and his work for us on the cross we then we have eternal life.

According to the scripture, eternal life does not just mean to live for every but eternal life is God.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

When we believe on Jesus our past sins are forgiven, we are given a new status, then we are recreated through our union with God and because we are united with God we have eternal life

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


why I do not believe once saved always saved
Most of the time, the argument from those who believe in OSAS
Is that Jesus said he would not lose anyone the father has given to him and the book of Romans that said that nothing can separate us from the love of God yes only if we abide in him.


There is a problem if we isolate a single verse and try to build a doctrine around it.
Take this verse for example,

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Some one might build a doctrine around this verse by saying because Jesus said whatsoever you ask in his name you will recieve, but in the book of James we are told that it is only when we are in his will.
Although Jesus does not state the condition in that verse but it exist in another verse and dont also forget that when the disciples were trying to cast out demons, they could not even when the used the name of Jesus until Jesus told them that they need to fast.
You see that it is dangerous to build a doctrine around a single verse.

Through out scriptures, there are warnings, examples on the possibility of believers falling away from the faith.
Unbelievers can fall away from faith because the never had it in the first place.

The condition for security is to abide in Christ.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

As long as we remain in Christ we are saved and washed from our sins.
For example if we refuse to acknowledge our sins or confess them to God it will be clear we have departed from the truth. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life, so if we are not in his truth we will be cut off from him.
If we do not abide in his doctrine/teaching/commandments then we have departed from him, this does not mean sinless perfection but as long as we abide in him the Spirit will help us to grow into maturity and we would be cleanse from even stain of sin and unrighteousness so that when Jesus comes he would receive us. Jesus is coming for a clean and spotless church, he is not coming to die for sins again he has already done that.

If you want to be prepared for his coming(the rapture) or to end up with him after this earthly life, my friend abide in him.

For believers abide in Christ, for unbelievers believe on Jesus christ, and follow him.
Remain Rapture ready.


If a man does not abide in Christ, does it not mean he was not saved? yes I believe so, because those who are genuinely saved will continue in Jesus.

This does not mean that Christ will lose anyone the father has given to him.

solite3:
To abide in Christ means to continue in his teaching.
I believe those who are born of God will keep his teaching.
I believe the bible teach conditional security but only those who are born of God can meet such conditions.

If those who are born of God can meet such conditions, is it same as them having eternal security. That is if am born of God, then i can fulfill the conditions therefore i surely have eternal life/security.

If they can meet such conditions by being born of God, isnt that total and final assurance?

By the way, are there believers who arent born of God?

hupernikao:



If those who are born of God can meet such conditions, is it same as them having eternal security. That is if am born of God, then i can fulfill the conditions therefore i surely have eternal life/security.

If they can meet such conditions by being born of God, isnt that total and final assurance?

By the way, are there believers who arent born of God?

Good question. You know many people don’t think logically that’s why they contradict themselves. If a=b and b=c, can we have a=/c? A HIGH output (1) results only if all the inputs to the AND gate are HIGH (1); Can we ever have a LOW output (0) when the inputs are HIGH (1)? The OP thinks otherwise. He will either contradict himself or become heretic.

If I am not mistaken, OP used to be in support of Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) but has reconsidered.

This is a good example.

The logic of OSAS never made sense. The arrangement of the universe ( physical and spiritual) is a logical one that can be largely reasoned out. God to this end tells us to come and let's reason together.

OSAS means repentance can be followed up by a return to the old ways. This is very wrong and contradicts God's word that says God isn't the author of confusion.

The way I understand the universe is a little bit different. The people who promote and embrace chaos without genuine repentance won't scale through. That's why witches who use witchcraft to live 90% of life and now start professing Christ at the last minute are wasting their own time. Anything not gotten by faith is considered sin. That's the extreme opposite of witchcraft and dark powers. The live by sight. They spy into the future of a bright chap, destroy it, then feign repentance when the damages have become irreversible. That's cosmetics salvation/repentance and OSAS can't cover that up.

CodeTemplar:
If I am not mistaken, OP used to be in support of Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) but has reconsidered.

This is a good example.

The logic of OSAS never made sense. The arrangement of the universe ( physical and spiritual) is a logical one that can be largely reasoned out. God to this end tells us to come and let's reason together.

OSAS means repentance can be followed up by a return to the old ways. This is very wrong and contradicts God's word that says God isn't the author of confusion.

The way I understand the universe is a little bit different. The people who promote and embrace chaos without genuine repentance won't scale through. That's why witches who use witchcraft to live 90% of life and now start professing Christ at the last minute are wasting their own time. Anything not gotten by faith is considered sin. That's the extreme opposite of witchcraft and dark powers. The live by sight. They spy into the future of a bright chap, destroy it, then feign repentance when the damages have become irreversible. That's cosmetics salvation/repentance and OSAS can't cover that up.

This is doctrinal argument from the scriptures.
Please sir, you must quote extensively from the scriptures and explain the same, not using logic if you want to speak on doctrinal issues. You cant speak about salvation in Christ from personal view. The whole theme of the bible itself is about Salvation. So if you claim a doctrine contradict God's word, i will appreciate a proper and extensive explanation on this from you.

By the way, your meaning or explanation of OSAS is very different from what its preachers mean. See what you said below.

OSAS means repentance can be followed up by a return to the old ways.

You may need to first do a proper listening and study of this (OSAS) doctrine first to understand its explanation from its preachers' view before you can investigate the scriptures and confirm its errancy.

hupernikao:


This is doctrinal argument from the scriptures.
Please sir, you must quote extensively from the scriptures and explain the same, not using logic if you want to speak on doctrinal issues. You cant speak about salvation in Christ from personal view. The whole theme of the bible itself is about Salvation. So if you claim a doctrine contradict God's word, i will appreciate a proper and extensive explanation on this from you.

By the way, your meaning or explanation of OSAS is very different from what its preachers mean. See what you said below.



You may need to first do a proper listening and study of this (OSAS) doctrine first to understand its explanation from its preachers' view before you can investigate the scriptures and confirm its errancy.

Speak English please.

solite3:
In the old testament sacrifices must be made continuously for the remision of sins.

the sacrifice has being made once and for all unlike in the old testament when it is done repeatedly.

Jesus is still the high priest in heavenly temple, Hence we are told to come to the throne of mercy so our need could be met.

In the old testament, the high priest stand ministering before the altar he had to make atonement and confess the sins of the previous year, He repeats this every year but in the new testament Christ offer's himself as sin offering once for all and offer eternal forgiveness to the past sin. This is the perfection he is talking about.

But it does not mean we cannot sin but John said if any sin he has an advocate with the father Jesus the righteous, and also.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanse us from every sin as long as we are in the light as Jesus is.

I do not agree with the OSAS that there is no condition to security but what the bible teaches is that there is condition.

Sounds the same to me.

Old testament: God was forgiving people per their confession.
New testament: God is forgiving people per their confession.

This is what you just explained.

At the bolded "eternal forgiveness to the past sin", where did the Bible ever say the forgiveness of Jesus was for past sins only?

Romans 5:8-10 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. [10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

This passage does not agree with the idea that Jesus forgave only past sins. If someone can die for you when you were his enemy, how then will you say he can allow you to fall away for a mistake you commit when you are already reconciled to him? If you are my enemy, you hated me very much but I still love you. When you now become my friend, what can you do that'll make me disown you?

And by the way, who supposed to maintain salvation? The saved or the saviour? Who's in charge of the safety of the sheep? The sheep itself or the shepherd?

hupernikao:



If those who are born of God can meet such conditions, is it same as them having eternal security. That is if am born of God, then i can fulfill the conditions therefore i surely have eternal life/security.

If they can meet such conditions by being born of God, isnt that total and final assurance?

By the way, are there believers who arent born of God?

yes, there are believers who not born of God, I mean sperficial believers.
What op disagree with in OSAS is that there is no condition in remaining saved.

Acehart:


Good question. You know many people don’t think logically that’s why they contradict themselves. If a=b and b=c, can we have a=/c? A HIGH output (1) results only if all the inputs to the AND gate are HIGH (1); Can we ever have a LOW output (0) when the inputs are HIGH (1)? [s]]The OP thinks otherwise. He will either contradict himself or become heretic.[/s]

Read again. What different a Sheep from a goat is that a sheep hear the voice of Christ. So if you are a sheep you will obey him.

solite3:
yes, there are believers who not born of God, I mean sperficial believers.
What op disagree with in OSAS is that there is no condition in remaining saved.

Can you give me examples of believers not born of God in the scriptures. Bearing in mind that we are speaking about believers as related to Christ

CodeTemplar:
Speak English please.

Kindly re-read, you will find out it is well written in basic English.

solite3:
To abide in Christ means to continue in his teaching.
I believe those who are born of God will keep his teaching.
I believe the bible teach conditional security but only those who are born of God can meet such conditions.

I once opened a thread about the error of OSAS.
However, I have come to find that what gives credence to this notion is that the scriptures support both claims. Hence, the endless arguments.

As you have pointed out, there are scriptures that support OSAS. Likewise there are scriptures that negate it.
What then? Shall we say the bible contradicts it self or that God is an author of confusion?

I believe that's part of the mystery of God's ways.
We just have to live by faith.

pressplay411:


I once opened a thread about the error of OSAS.
However, I have come to find that what gives credence to this notion is that the scriptures support both claims. Hence, the endless arguments.

As you have pointed out, there are scriptures that support OSAS. Likewise there are scriptures that negate it.
What then? Shall we say the bible contradicts it self or that God is an author of confusion?

I believe that's part of the mystery of God's ways.
We just have to live by faith.

The truth is that true believers would eventually abide in Christ.
OSAS is true in the sense that true believers would eventually be saved.

Funaki:


What's the difference between this and the old testament?

In the old testament, their sins were forgiven whenever the high priest makes supplication for them.

What's the point of Jesus dying and resurrecting if the old and the new are pretty much the same? I thought the new testament sacrifice for sin is once for all?

Please explain this passage in Hebrews. What was the writer talking about?

Hebrews 10:10-14 KJV
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. [11] And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: [12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [13] From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. [14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

I'm ready to learn. Give me the full explanation like I'm a student of bible school

John 3:16 - 17 answers your question, man is a free moral agent, you can be given but might not accept, remember in the university there is acceptance fee, salvation is available for all sinners but only repentant sinners can obtain it and abide in it.