^^^
Yes, he was born under the law, lived the law and fulfilled the law. While he was living, he was setting a new order (new testament) that will take effect after his death. The cross separates the Old from the New Testament, not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Heb 9:16-18 KJV

goshen360: ^^^
Yes, he was born under the law, lived the law and fulfilled the law. While he was living, he was setting a new order (new testament) that will take effect after his death. The cross separates the Old from the New Testament, not Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Heb 9:16-18 KJV

Are you saying that what our Lord Jesus Christ said in the gospels are no longer relevant to the NT believers?

^^^
lol. If you don't take the words of Paul seriously, You must take the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ seriously my brother. Jesus was born under the law, lived the law and at the same time setting a new Law that will take effect after His death.

Let me give you an example: The woman with caught in adultery. The Law of Moses says she must be stoned but Jesus saw a potential convert and forgiveness. God does not desire that all should perish in sin but that all should come to repentance. Remember, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Supposing we have being stoned to death before now, how shall we come to Christ. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly No. Think about that bro.

That is just one. I can pull many examples for you to see that as he was fulfilling the Law, he was also setting a new order that will take effect after His death.

^^^^ and @ Olaadegbu

Bros/es

In addition, we should be fair and faithful in our understanding and aplication of scriptures.

Let me give an example, Jesus also said: “Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

Since these are also the words of Jesus, why then are we not following them? Why are we not obliged to go and sell all we have?

Of course, the answer is simple: because of the context!

The same thing with our approach to Matthew 23:23 ------ Jesus was talking to those under the law about their operation and application of their law!


Bros, I agree (and I know goshen does too) that those who minister the gospel are entitled to good remuneration; we also agree that Christians should adequately support the gospel. Indeed, personally I support your recent use and highlighting of the passages "do not muzzle the ox" and "worthy of double-honour" and again I say it is right that ministers (including e.g. the Choir) should be adequately remunerated.

At the same time we have to be faithful to scripture and its context. I think even if we want to recommend tihing as an option for Christian giving, that is one thing; it is another thing a[i]ltogether[/i] , and not acceptable, to represent Matthew 23:23 as an instruction from Jesus Christ to Christians per se to practise "tithing".

goshen360: ^^^
lol. If you don't take the words of Paul seriously, You must take the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ seriously my brother. Jesus was born under the law, lived the law and at the same time setting a new Law that will take effect after His death.

Paul did not only quote the Mosaic Law he also quoted our Lord Jesus Christ if His words mean much to you.

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Timothy 5:17-18 ),

goshen360:
Let me give you an example: The woman with caught in adultery. The Law of Moses says she must be stoned but Jesus saw a potential convert and forgiveness. God does not desire that all should perish in sin but that all should come to repentance. Remember, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Supposing we have being stoned to death before now, how shall we come to Christ. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly No. Think about that bro.

The stones represent judgment but listen to what Jesus said, citing the OT Scriptures that you think has been abolished and Jesus was not saying anything new but was simply referring them to what the Law says:

"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings" (Hosea 6:6).

"But go and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13).

"But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless" (Matthew 12:7)

goshen360:
That is just one. I can pull many examples for you to see that as he was fulfilling the Law, he was also setting a new order that will take effect after His death.

As you can see in the verses quoted above that Jesus did not change the Law but gave the proper interpretation and application of it to those who had lost its meaning.

^^^
I perfectly understand what you are saying but you are going out of context of our discussion to another issue sir.

Please can you interpret the verse below:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Heb 9:16-18 KJV

Am waiting sir.

Enigma: ^^^^ and @ Olaadegbu

Bros/es

In addition, we should be fair and faithful in our understanding and aplication of scriptures.

If you are to be fair and faithful in your understanding and application of the Scriptures you will have to listen to what the Author and finisher of our faith said. He fulfilled the Law by properly interpreting and applying the Law that was given in the OT.

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

Enigma:
Let me give an example, Jesus also said: “Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” (Mark 10:21)

Since these are also the words of Jesus, why then are we not following them? Why are we not obliged to go and sell all we have?

Of course, the answer is simple: because of the context!

Jesus used the Law to expose the rich young man's hidden sin. The man violated the 1st of the 10 Commandments. His riches was his god and he could not serve God and Mammon simultaneously and Jesus, motivated by love told him. That is the context, you cannot serve God and Mammon.

Enigma:
The same thing with our approach to Matthew 23:23 ------ Jesus was talking to those under the law about their operation and application of their law!

Jesus' words encompasses all dispensations, His words are universal. Remember "these least commandments".

Enigma:
Bros, I agree (and I know goshen does too) that those who minister the gospel are entitled to good remuneration; we also agree that Christians should adequately support the gospel. Indeed, personally I support your recent use and highlighting of the passages "do not muzzle the ox" and "worthy of double-honour" and again I say it is right that ministers (including e.g. the Choir) should be adequately remunerated.

Just as the priesthood who ministered in the temple under the Law the full time ministers who minister in word and doctrine are entitled to remunerations generated from tithes and offerings.

Enigma:
At the same time we have to be faithful to scripture and its context. I think even if we want to recommend tihing as an option for Christian giving, that is one thing; it is another thing a[i]ltogether[/i] , and not acceptable, to represent Matthew 23:23 as an instruction from Jesus Christ to Christians per se to practise "tithing".

Abraham obeyed the commandments and laws of God and he paid tithes to Melchizedek even the Levis paid tithes in Abraham. Children of Abraham who want his blessing should also pay tithes and offerings.

goshen360: ^^^
I perfectly understand what you are saying but you are going out of context of our discussion to another issue sir.

Please can you interpret the verse below:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Heb 9:16-18 KJV

Am waiting sir.

@ Olaadegbu, am waiting for you to interpret this verse. I see you are kind of dodging it.

goshen360:

@ Olaadegbu, am waiting for you to interpret this verse. I see you are kind of dodging it.

I will rather you go to the Author and Finisher of our faith to see how He properly interpreted His Word.

Olaadegbu bros

My bros, you do small wayo with that your answer to my last post oh!

OK See: you say when Jesus told the fella to go and sell everything, it was simply to address the hidden sin of the chap because riches was his God. My bros, it follows that you are saying that Jesus did not command us/Christians to go and sell everything. Rather we should learn to address our own 'hidden sins' including idolatry of riches.

OK I agree with you.

But let us apply the same standard of interpretation to Matthew 23:23!

When Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have observed justice and weightier matters instead of simply tithing ewedu, thyme etc (ok mint, cumin etc), He was addressing their hypocrisy and show-off. So according to the standard you used for the earlier passage, Jesus did NOT command us/Christians to "tithe" but rather to address our own hypocrisy.


On the point that Jesus "fulfilled" the law and "whosoever shall break one of the least of these commandments":

My brother we need to be disciplined in interpreting such passages and the Bible generally. Consider this, if we take the interpretative approach that you are suggesting then we would have to say that Jesus Himself and His disciples broke "these commandments" and taught people to do so! Jesus' disciples gathered food on the sabbath, they ate with unclean hands; Jesus Himself healed on the sabbath.

Finally, there was NO command that Abram obeyed when he chose voluntarily to give a tenth of spoils of war to Melchizedek!

D things of the spirit cannot be dealt with carnally. All I think we all can do is to pray and do as you are led.
God is the rewarder.

OLAADEGBU:
Abraham obeyed the commandments and laws of God and he paid tithes to Melchizedek even the Levis paid tithes in Abraham. Children of Abraham who want his blessing should also pay tithes and offerings.

Oga OLAADEGBU, you know this is not right now When you know Abraham did not make his money by paying tithe & offering, why recommend this approach to peeps desirous of Abraham's type wealth

OLAADEGBU:
I will rather you go to the Author and Finisher of our faith to see how He properly interpreted His Word.

lol. But you can perfectly interpret, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Timothy 5:17-18 ) without going to the Author and Finisher of our faith? lol. This is strange and serious. Maybe I can interpret the verse for you if you care. If you dont care, let's look at the tithing issue from Abraham as you said. Waiting for you to start it up bro.

What happens to the fact that the tithes were meant to be eaten by the tither?

Deu 14:23 Bring your tithe into the Presence of GOD, your God, at the place he designates for worship and there eat the tithe from your grain, wine, and oil and the firstborn from your herds and flocks. In this way you will learn to live in deep reverence before GOD, your God, as long as you live.


Pleaseeeeeeeee

^^^
lol. These preachers will NEVER preach this kind of tithe BECAUSE it doesn't suite their pockects.

^^^ And "tithe" was also for our personal jollification, enjoyment and igbaladun!

Deuteronomy 14:26

Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.

goshen360:

lol. But you can perfectly interpret, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Timothy 5:17-18 ) without going to the Author and Finisher of our faith? lol. This is strange and serious. Maybe I can interpret the verse for you if you care. If you dont care, let's look at the tithing issue from Abraham as you said. Waiting for you to start it up bro.

Olaadegbu you see how you are ridicling yourself and proving to be a very dishonest person! What kind of christian would wilfully twisting the very same scriptures his beliefs his based on?

LOL, waiting for comments

goshen360: ^^^
lol.

LOL Enigma, You got it.

Nevertheless i am still waiting for comments becuase i never hear pple talk about that one in particular

Enigma: ^^^ And "tithe" was also for our personal jollification, enjoyment and igbaladun!

Deuteronomy 14:26

^^^
We are same side bro. I dont support tithing. Let's wait for those tithe teachers to come explain that verse. That's why i was laughing. Obviously, they ignore that verse. lol

Pastor Kun:

Olaadegbu you see how you are ridicling yourself and proving to be a very dishonest person! What kind of christian would wilfully twisting the very same scriptures his beliefs his based on?

Indeed, this is the style of Alaadegbu. He changes the context of the biblical passages that exposes.
I have only a small discrepancy with you.
It is true that he is ridiculous, but fundamentally he is a blind fanatic.
It makes sense to share a thread with someone who does not understand and all he talks about is the tithe and terror to the devil.
I do not spend a single letter in reply. Not a single movement of my finger.
My respects!

Enigma: Olaadegbu bros

My bros, you do small wayo with that your answer to my last post oh!

Which kind wayo?

Enigma:
OK See: you say when Jesus told the fella to go and sell everything, it was simply to address the hidden sin of the chap because riches was his God. My bros, it follows that you are saying that Jesus did not command us/Christians to go and sell everything. Rather we should learn to address our own 'hidden sins' including idolatry of riches.

Many Christians will miss heaven because of coveteousness, that is, the love of money and this addresses the problem we Nigerians have. Most of us serve Mammon but we think we can serve God at the same time.

Enigma:
OK I agree with you.

Can you say specifically where you agree with me?

Enigma:
But let us apply the same standard of interpretation to Matthew 23:23!

When Jesus told the Pharisees that they should have observed justice and weightier matters instead of simply tithing ewedu, thyme etc (ok mint, cumin etc), He was addressing their hypocrisy and show-off. So according to the standard you used for the earlier passage, Jesus did NOT command us/Christians to "tithe" but rather to address our own hypocrisy.

Agreed that Jesus was addressing their hypocrisy He nonetheless stated that they should continue to pay it.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith: these ought you to have done, and not leave the other undone" (Matthew 23:23).

Folks short change themselves by believing that Jesus was only speaking to the scribes and Pharisees who were living under the law and that it does not relate to them because they are under grace. The devil has succeeded in hindering their blessings, even satanists and atheists are jumping on the anti-tithing bandwagon.

Enigma:
On the point that Jesus "fulfilled" the law and "whosoever shall break one of the least of these commandments":

My brother we need to be disciplined in interpreting such passages and the Bible generally. Consider this, if we take the interpretative approach that you are suggesting then we would have to say that Jesus Himself and His disciples broke "these commandments" and taught people to do so! Jesus' disciples gathered food on the sabbath, they ate with unclean hands; Jesus Himself healed on the sabbath.

When you leave the Bible to interprete itself you will see how our Lord and Saviour properly interpreted His Words.

Enigma:
Finally, there was NO command that Abram obeyed when he chose voluntarily to give a tenth of spoils of war to Melchizedek!

Are you certainly sure? This is what God said to Isaac concerning his father Abraham:

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my laws" (Genesis 26:5).

Do you think Abraham just does things arbitrarily or actually obeyed the laws of God? Even Jacob vowed to pay his tithes.

goshen360: ^^^
I perfectly understand what you are saying but you are going out of context of our discussion to another issue sir.

Please can you interpret the verse below:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. Heb 9:16-18 KJV

Am waiting sir.

Our Lord Jesus Christ answers you question in the quote below:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 5:17-19).

jackima: D things of the spirit cannot be dealt with carnally. All I think we all can do is to pray and do as you are led.
God is the rewarder.

God bless you for this admonition.

Zikkyy:

Oga OLAADEGBU, you know this is not right now When you know Abraham did not make his money by paying tithe & offering, why recommend this approach to peeps desirous of Abraham's type wealth

Abraham kept God's commandment and Laws and since he was not lawless neither should we. The Holy Spirit has written His Law into the hearts of all those who have put their trust in Him and by His grace we do as He has commanded.

goshen360:

lol. But you can perfectly interpret, "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward" (1 Timothy 5:17-18 ) without going to the Author and Finisher of our faith? lol. This is strange and serious. Maybe I can interpret the verse for you if you care. If you dont care, let's look at the tithing issue from Abraham as you said. Waiting for you to start it up bro.

You missed the point. The Scripture you have up their interpretes itself. You see Paul there quoting the Mosaic Law and using it in the NT. When he said the labourer is worthy of his reward that was our Lord Jesus Christ that he quoted, and who did Jesus say those words to?

goshen360: ^^^
We are same side bro. I dont support tithing. Let's wait for those tithe teachers to come explain that verse. That's why i was laughing. Obviously, they ignore that verse. lol

Birds of the same feather they say, flock together. I guess this is the gathering of spiritual rebels and I certainly don't fit in.

OLAADEGBU:
You missed the point. The Scripture you have up their interpretes itself. You see Paul there quoting the Mosaic Law and using it in the NT. When he said the labourer is worthy of his reward that was our Lord Jesus Christ that he quoted, and who did Jesus say those words to?

Oga sir, The above bolded in red, you just made my point and caught up in your own web,lol.

"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood". Heb 9:16-18 KJV

Verily Verily I say unto you, the above verse by same Apostle Paul also explain ITSELF EVEN VERY CLEARLY. CAN YOU DO US A HONOUR BY INTERPRETING HEB 9:16-18 ELSE YOU WILL BE GUILTY OF HYPOCRISY.

^^^
HYPOCRISY is in Olaadegbu's dna.

goshen360:

Oga sir, The above bolded in red, you just made my point and caught up in your own web,lol.

"For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood". Heb 9:16-18 KJV

Verily Verily I say unto you, the above verse by same Apostle Paul also explain ITSELF EVEN VERY CLEARLY. CAN YOU DO US A HONOUR BY INTERPRETING HEB 9:16-18 ELSE YOU WILL BE GUILTY OF HYPOCRISY.

If you refuse to go to the speaker of the Word for interpretation but insist on me interpreting it to you then know that's what you have chosen.

OLAADEGBU: . . .

Are you certainly sure? This is what God said to Isaac concerning his father Abraham:

"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statues, and my laws" (Genesis 26:5).

Do you think Abraham just does things arbitrarily or actually obeyed the laws of God? Even Jacob vowed to pay his tithes.

OK then: you say Abraham was following God's command when he gave 10% to Melchizedek.

Was Abraham also follwing God's command when he gave 90% (minus small bits) to the king of Sodom?

If you are teaching the 10% to Melchizedek as doctrine, why are you not teaching the 90% to the king of Sodom too as doctrine?

If you are saying people must give 10% because of Abram's example, why are you not teaching that people must also give 90% (minus bits) as well - also because of Abram's example?

Genesis 14

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, and have taken an oath 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the thong of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshcol and Mamre. Let them have their share.”