Could be because the body grows old no matter how much we try to fight it.  Regardless of how strong we may think we are, the body wears and tears under duress. If it takes a century of living to wear-out, then you die of old age, but it could take some seconds of crushing and banging, smoking weed, having aids/cancer to speed up the process, thereby taking younger lives.

As soon as the body gives up the ghost, it is time to meet our maker, whether or not we've planned it.

Some believe the body is soul-less, but it is the soul that has a body.  The soul is said to live forever.  As soon as the body gives up the ghost, the spirit begins to live on forever.


Perhaps we die for the same reasons we live.  Either way, without death, there can be no life.  If we don't die, the world would become overpopulated, and then we all die.  We're disposable systems that are designed to fail at a specific time.  Perhaps we die to let others live.

What about pre-bodily existence? The soul continues to live even when the body is laid to rest. For the soul, I don't think there's ever birth or death. The soul is eternal, premordial, and everlasting. Since this is the case, what/where was I prior to being present in the body, and why am I unable to retain and recall that information in this bodily form?

Have you ever thought that maybe after we die, there will be nothing? A meaningless existence. Assuming that before you were born, there was nothing. Wouldn't it be cruel and unfair, to build a legacy on earth, to create beautiful memories, leave behind loved ones, build all these graceful bonds, and in the end have nothing to show for it? What about all of those who are wronged, callously murdered, lynched, sent to early graves? What would become of the tyrants who made them mortals? Do they receive no punishments?

We came into the world with nothing, and with nothing shall we return to our resting place. Dust are ye, and dust shall ye become?

So there a few glaring issues here.  Death is either a complete state of nothingness and cessation of existence, or death causes the soul to migrate from one world to another.  The latter case forces me to ask: have we died before?  I would be made to think that the soul migrated from a prior base to this earth, and in doing so there was some form of death and a bodily re-birth, which brought it here?  After death on earth it would move on to yet another existence.


To die or to live. Which is better? God only knows.
Why are we so afraid of death? Why do we long to live forever?

I am not afraid of death, but I am a bit worried about my means of dying. If I was going down in an airplane, I'd be scared of pain, but not of the death. Scared of the method of dying. It would be tortourous.

Do the dead sleepeth forever, for all of what seems, to them, like a day? Basically, all of eternity is rolled into one night of undisturbed, peaceful, perfect sleep.

After you die, your body will begin to decompose just like any other organic material.
One hour after death; the muscles relax totally.
Three hours after death; rigor mortis sets in.
One day after death; the body has fully returned to room temperature.
One day-on after death: the skin shrinks and contracts giving the appearance that the hair and nails have grown.
Within one to two days of death; if flies are around, they will begin laying eggs which will hatch into maggots in available areas of the body.
After two days from death; rigor mortis relaxes.
After two days-on from death; the internal tissue begins the process of decay; starting to turn into gasses and liquids.
Within one week of death; the flesh has become liquid-like under the skin.
Within two weeks of death; the stomach distends due to accumulation of gasses and this can lead to the discharge of a dark, bloody liquid from the nose and mouth of the corpse.
After three to four weeks of death; the body is extremely decayed, hair and nails can be easily pulled out; the trunk has swollen to twice its size; while the face has gone a purple green and the tongue protrudes.
After five to six weeks of death; the body has become soup-like.
If a body is buried in the ground; after a time of ten years all the tissue has turned to liquid and gas and been absorbed by the surrounding soil leaving only the bones.

assuming: birth is a continuation
                 death is a continuation
                 does birth = death



since there is a better place a coming, why are we so sad when people die? Is it just selfishiness on our part that we'll miss them?

kobe:

The soul continues to live even when the body is laid to rest. For the soul, I don't think there's ever birth or death.

I don't know about the soul being present since the very beginning. As written in the holy book: In the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God.

It's been debated and argued that Jesus is the Word and Jesus is God, so, if that's the case, when did the soul ever begin to exist. Are the souls part of the word. Maybe we don't need to have a beginning, or just maybe the soul was also there in the beginning. The holy book did not say that "in the beginning there was only the word."

@kobe,

kobe:

What about pre-bodily existence? The soul continues to live even when the body is laid to rest. For the soul, I don't think there's ever birth or death. The soul is eternal, premordial, and everlasting. Since this is the case, what/where was I prior to being present in the body, and why am I unable to retain and recall that information in this bodily form?

The above (and more) are legitimate questions that we all should be concerned with. However, if the ideas we started out with are quite unbalanced, the inferences will be as unbalanced as well.

One needs to qualify the meaning of the soul being "eternal". The soul of man is not "eternal" as though it never had a beginning. God did not "become" a living soul - rather, it was man at the time of his being created that was said to have "become" a living soul.

Second, the core question in discussions like this that many people really seek an answer to is the question of whether the soul continues to live "even when the body is laid to rest". Put another way, we are saying that the soul survives the death of the body. I believe that the soul does not cease to exist at the death of the body; and following that, I'm persuaded that the soul lives in quite another (or different) kind of existence.

Discussions like this (as broadly suggested by the topic of this thread) would involve questions of the nature of the spirit of man; the meaning of the body and soul; the reality of the existence of these components of man in life, at death and beyond death, etc.

As we progress this discussion (as well the on-going discussions in the other relevant threads), I trust we shall arrive at some conherence somewhere.

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

@kobe,

The above (and more) are legitimate questions that we all should be concerned with. However, if the ideas we started out with are quite unbalanced, the inferences will be as unbalanced as well.

Which is why we're left with more questions than we have answers.

One needs to qualify the meaning of the soul being "eternal".

One needs to qualify the existence of a soul before qualifying the eternity of the said soul.

The soul of man is not "eternal" as though it never had a beginning.
God did not "become" a living soul - rather, it was man at the time of his being created that was said to have "become" a living soul.

Was man/soul created at birth? And, did he acquire a "living soul" through birth?  Or, did "man"(not necessarily in this bodily form) exist quite before his physical presence here on earth?  In short, what was man before he became a "living soul"?  dust, sperm, or a "resting soul"? or none of the mentioned?

Second, the core question in discussions like this that many people really seek an answer to is the question of whether the soul continues to live "even when the body is laid to rest".

First, I would like us to validate the presence of a soul.  I would assume you're either a pastor, or a deeply religious person who knows "enough" about the scriptures.  Since I am a christian, it would not take too long to convince me that there is a soul, but how would you convince me that there exists a soul?
After we establish this phenomenon, we can then tackle the idea above.

Put another way, we are saying that the soul survives the death of the body. I believe that the soul does not cease to exist at the death of the body; and following that, I'm persuaded that the soul lives in quite another (or different) kind of existence.

I was forced to ponder this too.  At the same time, I thought it unwise, or as though foolish, that I know not of another life that is in existence.  Earlier I asked the question about where I was pre-birth, and why I am unable to retain/recall that information in this life, can you shed any insight into this?

Discussions like this (as broadly suggested by the topic of this thread) would involve questions of the nature of the spirit of man; the meaning of the body and soul;

the reality of the existence of these components of man in life, at death and beyond death, etc.

Oh good!
If man has a soul, is his soul one with his body while he is "living" on earth?  Does it remain separated?  Are all of these somehow related to our conscience?

As we progress this discussion (as well the on-going discussions in the other relevant threads), I trust we shall arrive at some conherence somewhere.

only time will tell.


I apologize for being all over the place, but there are just so many questions. cheers![quote][/quote]

Dear kobe,

kobe:

Which is why we're left with more questions than we have answers.

It should not necessarily be so. The point is simple - more questions are only indices of the fact that people start out with unbalanced ideas before even allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

kobe:

One needs to qualify the existence of a soul before qualifying the eternity of the said soul.

Which is not a difficult thing to do. However, to quickly assume an "eternity" of the soul without first qualifying what is meant by "eternity" will only drag this issue into unnecessary and protracted debates. I have tried to clear this bit by offering that the soul is NOT eternal as if it never had a beginning - which in other words is saying that the soul of man had a beginning.

kobe:

Was man/soul created at birth?

Could you qualify what you mean by "birth"? It is not clear what exactly you connote by that word - judging from the context you have used it so far.

kobe:

And, did he acquire a "living soul" through birth?

As above. The simple thing here that I'm persuaded Scripture teaches is that the soul is a created component of man.

kobe:

Or, did "man"(not necessarily in this bodily form) exist quite before his physical presence here on earth?

The Bible teaches quite the opposite.

kobe:

In short, what was man before he became a "living soul"?  dust, sperm, or a "resting soul"? or none of the mentioned?

I would need to ask you pointedly, kobe: does Scripture teach anywhere that man ever existed before he was created? I haven't come across such an idea in Scripture - and if you are so convinced thereto, perhaps it would help us if you start out by demonstrating that it is so - from Scripture.

kobe:

First, I would like us to validate the presence of a soul.  I would assume you're either a pastor, or a deeply religious person who knows "enough" about the scriptures.

No, I am not a pastor; nor do I make any claims of nothing so much of Scripture.

kobe:

Since I am a christian, it would not take too long to convince me that there is a soul, but how would you convince me that there exists a soul?

Lol. . . it really is one and the same thing, I guess - unless you would like to explicate the difference.   That there is a soul simply points out that the soul exists - as much as to say that if a soul does not exist, then there is NOT a soul! Abi no be so?

kobe:

After we establish this phenomenon, we can then tackle the idea above.

Done. Oya proceed.

kobe:

I was forced to ponder this too.  At the same time, I thought it unwise, or as though foolish, that I know not of another life that is in existence.  Earlier I asked the question about where I was pre-birth, and why I am unable to retain/recall that information in this life, can you shed any insight into this?

Oh well, as a Christian, I haven't come across the idea that we were pre-birthed before we actually came to earth. That would be quite a task to coherently bring out from the Bible (unless one would rather be incoherent and read their personal pretexts into the word of God).

Actually, I do not have any problems about "retaining/recalling" any information in an assumed "pre-birth" life or existence. The reason?  There are loads of reasons; but top of the list for me would mean that one would be equating himself/herself to a sort of re-incarnated being (which again the Bible does not teach).

I'm aware, though, that Mormons espouse the view or idea of a pre-existence and fancy themselves as sort of "foetus gods". The reason why they are not so confident in that teaching as to boldly acclaim it today is because it was a fallacy from the very beginning.

kobe:

Oh good!
If man has a soul, is his soul one with his body while he is "living" on earth?  Does it remain separated?  Are all of these somehow related to our conscience?only time will tell.

Let me safely say that I tend to regard "separate" and "distinct" as two different things. Please pardon my being particular here, but it is only necessary for the discussion.

By separate, one would be led to believe that body and soul exist in a divided manner while the man is alive - and I'm sure that's not what we would like to project.

However, by distinct, I'm looking at the existence of spirit, soul and body TOGETHER while man is alive, and yet none of the components being misconstrued for the other. Even at death when the spirit and soul are separated from the body, these components are still distinct from one another ('separated' here being the same thing as has been used by others to mean "departed from the body".

If you pardon my attempt to be clear here, you'd understand while I don't espouse the view or idea that the soul remains separated while the man is alive. Once the soul departs (or separates from) the body, death occurs - and a corpse is all that is left to be buried.

kobe:

I apologize for being all over the place, but there are just so many questions. cheers!

Oh please, you do not need to apologise! Be encouraged to bring them all the more. I do not claim to have all or many of the answers - and such questions are the very things that stimulate me into seeking to gain an understanding from those more knowledgeable on the subject.

Best regards.

pilgrim.1:

Dear kobe,

It should not necessarily be so. The point is simple - more questions are only indices of the fact that people start out with unbalanced ideas before even allowing the Scriptures to speak for themselves.

I am obliged to ask you to establish the scripture.

Which is not a difficult thing to do. However, to quickly assume an "eternity" of the soul without first qualifying what is meant by "eternity" will only drag this issue into unnecessary and protracted debates.

It is not by any means difficult to decipher the meaning of "eternity", so there's no problem there at all.  Eternity is like saying "an endlesss period of time" . Whethere that endless period of time has a beginning we do not know.  If we are dealing with time here, it ought to have a beginning, or so I would think.

I have tried to clear this bit by offering that the soul is NOT eternal as if it never had a beginning - which in other words is saying that the soul of man had a beginning.

Now I think we might be getting somewhere.  When was this beginning?

Could you qualify what you mean by "birth"? It is not clear what exactly you connote by that word - judging from the context you have used it so far.

by birth I mean being born into a bodily existence.  having a physical presence here on earth.

As above. The simple thing here that I'm persuaded Scripture teaches is that the soul is a created component of man.

The soul is a created component of man.  If this is true, then the soul only began to exist when man was born to life.  Why should man be convinced that the soul will live beyond  the destruction of his body?  Why does not the soul die when the body dies?

I would need to ask you pointedly, kobe: does Scripture teach anywhere that man ever existed before he was created? I think  haven't come across such an idea in Scripture - and if you are so convinced thereto, perhaps it would help us if you start out by demonstrating that it is so - from Scripture.

I'm not "too versed" in the scriptures, so the answer to this question is perhaps left to the pators, priests, or any other masterminds we might have on these forums.  Maybe they would be able to shed some light.  In my opinion, I think it would suffice based on the premise of an afterlife, to think there was a "before life".  If my train of thought is wrong, then aren't the agnostics right in believing that "it all ends" when we die, so live your life as if there was no tomorrow?

No, I am not a pastor; nor do I make any claims of nothing so much of Scripture.

Okay.  I suppose we're both fishing in the same water.

Lol. . . it really is one and the same thing, I guess - unless you would like to explicate the difference.   That there is a soul simply points out that the soul exists - as much as to say that if a soul does not exist, then there is NOT a soul! Abi no be so?

Done. Oya proceed.

This is why I asked about the relationship of the soul relative to the conscience.  If man is composed of both the spirit and the body, does the body exist merely to fulfil, as in carryout the will of the spirit?  I am compelled to say that the soul feels, decides, and thinks, while the body acts based on the spirit's preference.

Based on the logic that the soul is immortal, it is sound to ask if you existed before your birth.  Have you never heard of Pre Birth Experiences (PBE)?
Maybe you can qualify your stance that I opined to be, "the soul begins to exist when man is born to the world."

Oh well, as a Christian, I haven't come across the idea that we were pre-birthed before we actually came to earth. That would be quite a task to coherently bring out from the Bible (unless one would rather be incoherent and read their personal pretexts into the word of God).

I wouldn't add into the word of God what was not originally present.  Moreover, the reason why I would raise all these questions is, to explore all possibilities (both biblical and not).  The bible does not touch upon a scenario of "life before birth" (based on what you're saying), maybe it does and I don't know, but it still remains that there might be a component of man before he was born into his body that wasn't revealed in the scriptures .  Unless of course the scripture has already adressed and covered all possiblities.

Actually, I do not have any problems about "retaining/recalling" any information in an assumed "pre-birth" life or existence. The reason?  There are loads of reasons; but top of the list for me would mean that one would be equating himself/herself to a sort of re-incarnated being (which again the Bible does not teach).

So you're saying we're delving into a completely different realm here.  Hmm, I see!


Let me safely say that I tend to regard "separate" and "distinct" as two different things. Please pardon my being particular here, but it is only necessary for the discussion.

By separate, one would be led to believe that body and soul exist in a divided manner while the man is alive - and I'm sure that's not what we would like to project.

However, by distinct, I'm looking at the existence of spirit, soul and body TOGETHER while man is alive, and yet none of the components being misconstrued for the other. Even at death when the spirit and soul are separated from the body, these components are still distinct from one another ('separated' here being the same thing as has been used by others to mean "departed from the body".

Whatever thedefinitions, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying though separate they still function together. Sort of intertwined.  It's like the concept of a trinity, except this is a "twinity" lol.  Now, if soul and spirit are different, then it could still remain a trinity, because we have body, soul, and spirit.

If you pardon my attempt to be clear here, you'd understand while I don't espouse the view or idea that the soul remains separated while the man is alive. Once the soul departs (or separates from) the body, death occurs - and a corpse is all that is left to be buried.

Where does it go when it withdraws from the body?  Does it evaporate into space? Does it wait at the gates for judgement? Does it move on to a next life?  Does it rest in spirit until christ arrives?

Oh please, you do not need to apologise! Be encouraged to bring them all the more. I do not claim to have all or many of the answers - and such questions are the very things that stimulate me into seeking to gain an understanding from those more knowledgeable on the subject.

okay, thank you.

Best regards.
[quote][/quote]

we are burried beneath the earth and that is where we will lay until we decay and go back to dust and hopefully millions of yes later, another useless Nigerian government (if we continue having them) will be happy to dig us out as OIL

lol witty

Smart one there:

Anyhow, @kobe,

I think most of your concerns have been addressed in the other relevant threads seeking to establish answers to some of the present questions. If you permit me, I'd only try here to address tsome other relevant issues that might help us unclutter our discussion so far.

kobe:

I am obliged to ask you to establish the scripture.

Please see other relevant threads.

kobe:

It is not by any means difficult to decipher the meaning of "eternity", so there's no problem there at all. Eternity is like saying "an endlesss period of time" . Whethere that endless period of time has a beginning we do not know. If we are dealing with time here, it ought to have a beginning, or so I would think.

Which is what I have already hinted at, by first noting that:

pilgrim.1:

However, to quickly assume an "eternity" of the soul without first qualifying what is meant by "eternity" will only drag this issue into unnecessary and protracted debates.

. . . and then going on to say:

pilgrim.1:

I have tried to clear this bit by offering that the soul is NOT eternal as if it never had a beginning - which in other words is saying that the soul of man had a beginning.

The reason why I pointed out the above on "eternity" is just so we are clear what ideas we're postulating.

kobe:

Now I think we might be getting somewhere. When was this beginning?

We are told that man "became a living soul" in Genesis 2 v 7. This, to me at least (and carefully gathering the collective testimony of scripture), would mean that man did not exist prior to when he had a beginning to ring as that he "became". In one word, this "beginning" was at creation.

kobe:

by birth I mean being born into a bodily existence. having a physical presence here on earth.
The soul is a created component of man.

Okay - which lops off the idea of a pre-existence.

kobe:

If this is true, then the soul only began to exist when man was born to life. Why should man be convinced that the soul will live beyond the destruction of his body? Why does not the soul die when the body dies?

Two reasons why the above:

(a) because that is what Scripture teaches, and I can't improve on what is taught therein.

(b) because what is taught in Scripture shows that the soul exists beyond death in an entirely different kind of experience.

kobe:

I'm not "too versed" in the scriptures, so the answer to this question is perhaps left to the pators, priests, or any other masterminds we might have on these forums. Maybe they would be able to shed some light.

And we're inviting such brilliant minds (who, perhaps have been watching with the wisdom of the sages) to cough in here be-times!

@kobe,

kobe:

In my opinion, I think it would suffice based on the premise of an afterlife, to think there was a "before life".

Not necessarily. That simply means that we're thinking from pretexts rather than from the text of Scripture.

kobe:

If my train of thought is wrong, then aren't the agnostics right in believing that "it all ends" when we die, so live your life as if there was no tomorrow?

No. I would be enthralled for the agnostic to first shed the idea of "I don't know" while actually in reality he's whistling a "I refuse to be concerned"!! Hehe!

Asides, life is not about living "as if" it all ends now. Even for the agnostic, there's something which he or she may not know (and nothing would make sense to such, depending on what grounds they stand); but we can't be that preposterious as to deny that questions about spirituality are as legitimate.

kobe:

Okay.  I suppose we're both fishing in the same water.

Maybe.

kobe:

This is why I asked about the relationship of the soul relative to the conscience.

Another legitimate question - and that would bring us by-and-by to the discussion on the functions of each component (spirit, soul and body).

kobe:

If man is composed of both the spirit and the body, does the body exist merely to fulfil, as in carryout the will of the spirit?

Nope, the function of the body is much more than that - but each element of our being has their distinct function in our total being.

kobe:

I am compelled to say that the soul feels, decides, and thinks, while the body acts based on the spirit's preference.

That's a good one from you. However, I would only say that the body "feels" as well (e.g., pain, touch, cold or heat); although it may not be able to decide or think.

kobe:

Based on the logic that the soul is immortal, it is sound to ask if you existed before your birth.

This is where I would have to make a statement on the issue of the immortality of the soul. I'm sorry, but I do not believe in the immortality of the soul; but let me qualify this (so that nobody quotes me out of context).

The way people discuss the "immortality" of the soul happens in most cases to mean that the soul is NOT capable of dying - that it CANNOT die. Please note - that is what most exponents of that idea affirm, and that idea is what I reject.

Here is what I'd rather say: I believe that the soul survives the death of the body; but even the soul itself can experience another kind of death!

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus spoke of both the death of the body ('them which kill the body') as well the death of the soul ('not able to kill the soul'). Please notice something here:

        ~ (a) it is possible for one to kill the body (and that's all the killer can do)

        ~ (b) it is not possible for man to kill the soul

If both the body and the soul are both killed at the death of the body, we would not be reading of two distinct experiences in Matthew 10:28.

Bottom line is this:

[list][li]the soul of man is not immortal - as if it cannot experience death (albeit, a different kind of death)[/li]
[li]the soul of man survives the death of the body[/li]
[li]the death of the body does not mean that the soul no longer exists[/li]
[li]at death, the soul departs (or leaves or is separated from) the body[/li]
[li]the soul experiences a different kind of existence upon the death of the body[/li][/list]

It only now remains for me to share these persuasions from Scripture. . in due course.

kobe:

Have you never heard of Pre Birth Experiences (PBE)?

I have.

@kobe,

kobe:

Maybe you can qualify your stance that I opined to be, "the soul begins to exist when man is born to the world."

Done - as above.

kobe:

I wouldn't add into the word of God what was not originally present. Moreover, the reason why I would raise all these questions is, to explore all possibilities (both biblical and not). The bible does not touch upon a scenario of "life before birth" (based on what you're saying), maybe it does and I don't know, but it still remains that there might be a component of man before he was born into his body that wasn't revealed in the scriptures . Unless of course the scripture has already adressed and covered all possiblities.

I would be inclined to say that the Bible covers this subject (and many more) in detail; but for us to be able to say anything with any degree of near-certainty, it would require us to have a good grasp of what the bible teaches about it.

kobe:

So you're saying we're delving into a completely different realm here. Hmm, I see!

It seems so to me.

kobe:

Whatever thedefinitions, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying though separate they still function together. Sort of intertwined. It's like the concept of a trinity, except this is a "twinity" lol.

I like your sense of humour - and yes, I should agree that's the sense I was trying to make (unless, of course, I might need to qualify this further as the need arises).

kobe:

Now, if soul and spirit are different, then it could still remain a trinity, because we have body, soul, and spirit.

The whole man himself is a trinity.

kobe:

Where does it go when it withdraws from the body? Does it evaporate into space? Does it wait at the gates for judgement? Does it move on to a next life? Does it rest in spirit until christ arrives?

Lol. . . I would say: "YES" and "NO". How?

~ when it withdraws (departs from) the body, it goes back to God (Eccl. 12 v7)
~ it does not evaporate into space.
~ it does not wait at the "gates" of judgement; but it awaits the judgement (Heb. 9 v 27)
~ believers who have departed this life are "resting", or "asleep" in Him (1 Thes. 4:14)

kobe:

okay, thank you.

Enjoyed yours. Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

Anyhow, @kobe,

I think most of your concerns have been addressed in the other relevant threads seeking to establish answers to some of the present questions. If you permit me, I'd only try here to address tsome other relevant issues that might help us unclutter our discussion so far.

Please see other relevant threads.

Oh. Sorry, I'm too lazy to dig up buried threads.

The reason why I pointed out the above on "eternity" is just so we are clear what ideas we're postulating.

We are told that man "became a living soul" in Genesis 2 v 7. This, to me at least (and carefully gathering the collective testimony of scripture), would mean that man did not exist prior to when he had a beginning to ring as that he "became". In one word, this "beginning" was at creation.

The beginning of the "living" part of his soul. What about the other parts of the soul that make up the whole?

Okay - which lops off the idea of a pre-existence.

Two reasons why the above:

(a) because that is what Scripture teaches, and I can't improve on what is taught therein.

(b) because what is taught in Scripture shows that the soul exists beyond death in an entirely different kind of experience.

What kind of experience is it? It could shed some insight into what happens after death.
It's no longer a living soul once the body is recycled, it has to transform into another soul.

And we're inviting such brilliant minds (who, perhaps have been watching with the wisdom of the sages) to cough in here be-times!

I will be very fortunate to expand my wisdom at their expense. Hopefully they do come.

Hi @kobe,

kobe:

Oh. Sorry, I'm too lazy to dig up buried threads.

Okay - I've been a bit lazy myself these days. When I'm a bit more settled, I'll post a few links.

kobe:

The beginning of the "living" part of his soul. What about the other parts of the soul that make up the whole?

At creation  (Genesis 2:7):
[list][li]the body was first made;[/li]
[li]then God breathed into man;[/li]
[li]and then he "became" a living soul[/li][/list]

Others verses affirm the same thing:

[list][li]In Deut. 4:32, Moses speaks of "the day that God created man upon the earth" - which underscores the fact that man was created, and his beginnings were on the earth rather than in a pre-existent world;[/li]
[li]That man did not have a pre-existence is further highlighted in Job 38:4, where God asked this question pointedly: "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Again, this would lop off the idea of a pre-existence and make it easier for us to understand that there is no substance to the presupposition that we had a prior-existence but cannot recall certain info after we were born;[/li]
[li]Zechariah 12:1 states that God "formeth the spirit of man within him" - and I'm persuaded that points out that the body would already have been formed first before the spirit was formed within him.[/li][/list]

kobe:
             
What kind of experience is it? It could shed some insight into what happens after death.

True - it could shed some valuable insight into what happens after death; but thus far we have confined our discussions within the parameters of Scripture. However, the sort of experiences I hinted about are such as have to do with the ethereal and supernal worlds.

Basically, the question here is about whether or not the soul (and spirit) of man survives the death of his body. Having affirmed that it does, the next logical thing would be to discuss what type of existence the soul is brought to after it departs the body.

Some believe that the soul ceases to exist upon the death of the body. That's all well and good as appertains to their persuasion; but I'm not convinced that is what the Bible teaches - for two reasons:

~ because Scripture does not teach that idea; rather, the Bible highlights some activities of the souls of men after the death of the body;

~ when such an idea is closely examined until we come to the question of the resurrection, such proponents are of the view that the soul would be re-created in man on judgement day. This already proffers serious holes in thinking: because it would rather reduce man to a being of only TWO parts; as well as blur the distinction between the soul and the spirit - which are clearly distinguished in Scripture (Heb. 4:12). In anycase, the Bible does not teach a "re-creation" of soul.

kobe:

It's no longer a living soul once the body is recycled, it has to transform into another soul.

Well, I wait to see how you establish that idea from the WORD. On the contrary, the soul still "lives" - but not in our physical world, but rather in the experience of the ethereal and supernal world.

kobe:

I will be very fortunate to expand my wisdom at their expense. Hopefully they do come.

Lol. . . the sages never fail to show up at the right moment.

Enjoy.

@kobe,

pilgrim.1:

Okay - I've been a bit lazy myself these days. When I'm a bit more settled, I'll post a few links.

Try these:

A. There is a difference between "spirit" and "breath"

B. The "spirit" in man has distinct functions from "breath"

C. The "spirit" is a distinct component of man"

D. The "spirit" of man was created WITHIN him

Succinct Outline between the components by ricadelide

An indepth treatment of the distinctions between them

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

@kobe,

Not necessarily. That simply means that we're thinking from pretexts rather than from the text of Scripture.

Then we shall focus on scripture.
I was thinking our brothers in islam would join in the discussion too.

No. I would be enthralled for the agnostic to first shed the idea of "I don't know" while actually in reality he's whistling a "I refuse to be concerned"!! Hehe!

A lot of agnostics do seem to be concerned. Many feel they should live life now, and make generous contributions to it, to better serve the future generations.

Asides, life is not about living "as if" it all ends now. Even for the agnostic, there's something which he or she may not know (and nothing would make sense to such, depending on what grounds they stand); but we can't be that preposterious as to deny that questions about spirituality are as legitimate.

No, we cannot deny their legitimacy, but we can't deny their feelings as well. The agnostics are about as clued on the afterlife as you are. We are all very uncertain about it. It is this uncertainty that haunts the mind. This same uncertainty makes it beautiful. This same uncertainty causes conflicts amongst different beliefs. Drawing from scripture, we can say we know "something", but for someone who believes in a different deity, he also would think he knows "something" that will differ from what you know.

Another legitimate question - and that would bring us by-and-by to the discussion on the functions of each component (spirit, soul and body).

yes, I would like to find out the functions of these three "distinct" omens.

That's a good one from you. However, I would only say that the body "feels" as well (e.g., pain, touch, cold or heat); although it may not be able to decide or think.

How would you qualify this statement? I mean, once the soul departs the body, it renders the body painless; it becomes unable to feel.

This is where I would have to make a statement on the issue of the immortality of the soul. I'm sorry, but I do not believe in the immortality of the soul; but let me qualify this (so that nobody quotes me out of context).

The way people discuss the "immortality" of the soul happens in most cases to mean that the soul is NOT capable of dying - that it CANNOT die. Please note - that is what most exponents of that idea affirm, and that idea is what I reject.

Here is what I'd rather say: I believe that the soul survives the death of the body; but even the soul itself can experience another kind of death!

If you do not believe in the immortality of the soul, then we're back to square one, and we're going nowhere.
There would be no point at all in living.
I can agree with you if you say the soul of the "wicked" will experience another kind of death, and the soul of the "fine men" will live forever. But, if it is uncertain which soul will thrive or fail, we're stuck in the mud.

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus spoke of both the death of the body ('them which kill the body') as well the death of the soul ('not able to kill the soul'). Please notice something here:

~ (a) it is possible for one to kill the body (and that's all the killer can do)

~ (b) it is not possible for man to kill the soul

If both the body and the soul are both killed at the death of the body, we would not be reading of two distinct experiences in Matthew 10:28.

Bottom line is this:

[list][li]the soul of man is not immortal - as if it cannot experience death (albeit, a different kind of death)[/li]
[li]the soul of man survives the death of the body[/li]
[li]the death of the body does not mean that the soul no longer exists[/li]
[li]at death, the soul departs (or leaves or is separated from) the body[/li]
[li]the soul experiences a different kind of existence upon the death of the body[/li][/list]

It's impossible for man to kill the soul, let's say I agree.
Let's say it is possible for God to kill the soul, which souls would he choose to exterminate, and why? I know God is love and does not kill, but which souls would be exterminated, why, and by whom?

I would be inclined to say that the Bible covers this subject (and many more) in detail; but for us to be able to say anything with any degree of near-certainty, it would require us to have a good grasp of what the bible teaches about it.(pre-life)

A grasp that we don't have.


I like your sense of humour - and yes, I should agree that's the sense I was trying to make (unless, of course, I might need to qualify this further as the need arises).

The whole man himself is a trinity.

I haven't heard about this before.
I have come across the idea of God being a trinity, not man.

~ when it withdraws (departs from) the body, it goes back to God (Eccl. 12 v7)
~ it does not evaporate into space.
~ it does not wait at the "gates" of judgement; but it awaits the judgement (Heb. 9 v 27)
~ believers who have departed this life are "resting", or "asleep" in Him (1 Thes. 4:14)

Enjoyed yours. Cheers.

After this it's heaven or hell?

A quote from Martin Israel (See http://www.martinisrael.u-net.com/fire/chapter16.html )

"DEATH COMES to all of us. To those who are thoughtful, this prospect comes to be seen increasingly as a merciful release from the unceasing toil of the world and the mounting decrepitude of the body.

To those who are spiritually aware, death is the portal of entry to a fuller life in which much that we cannot understand in our present place of vantage may at last be opened to our comprehension and where we may see a little more clearly.

To some death comes at the close of a long eventful life when the body's functions finally fail. To others the advent of death is abrupt, like an unwelcome intruder impinging himself at the peak of a useful, promising life and summarily calling the participant to a distant realm of unknown quality, far removed from his present surroundings.

Death is at once man's friend and also his judge and accuser. It brings destruction with it and a termination of a life that may have been supremely worthwhile, for its summons is final"

MISHIGAS!

kobe:

Could be because the body grows old no matter how much we try to fight it.

THE HARDEST THING FOR EDUCATED PEOPLE TO LEARN IS THAT THEIR EDUCATION IS WORTHLESS.

Once they have learned that, becomes possible for people to learn anything.

If they don't learn that, they will likely never learn much, if anything.

[See: THE DELIBERATE DUMBING-DOWN OF AMERICA: The Scientific Destruction of Minds, by Charlotte Iserbyt.]

kobe:

Regardless of how strong we may think we are, the body wears and tears under duress.

THAT IS HOW OYINBOS TEACH IN SCHOOL: IF YOU HAD LEARNED TO THINK, YOU WOULD REALIZE THAT THAT IS A LIE.

There are TWENTY-FIVE birds in a tree: you shoot NINE- how many will remain?

If you try to solve the question by calculating 25 - 9 = ? you have a perfect example of how Oyinbo teaches us to br stupid.

THE HUMAN BODY IS MADE UP OF ATOMS; ATOMS CANNOT "WEAR OUT."

How can "WEARING-OUT" possibly be the cause of AGEING?

Something else is at work, there.

If we knew what that was, we could figure out how to STOP it.

kobe:

If it takes a century of living to wear-out, then you die of old age, but it could take some seconds of crushing and banging, smoking weed, having aids/cancer to speed up the process, thereby taking younger lives.

THE HUMAN BODY IS DESIGNED TO REPAIR ITSELF.

The Human Body is designed to reproduce itself every seven years. It can do this seven times, before it begins to destroy its Chromosomes. Making less and less of the cellular structure, until there isn't enough to sustain bodily functions.

That usually kills us by age 120.

kobe:

As soon as the body gives up the ghost, it is time to meet our maker, whether or not we've planned it.

WRONG.

Most Souls cannot survive in the Spiritual Realm.

kobe:

Some believe the body is soul-less, but it is the soul that has a body.  The soul is said to live forever.  As soon as the body gives up the ghost, the spirit begins to live on forever.

ALL LIVING THINGS ARE SOULS.

Bodies are just Chemicals.

Without Souls, they can do nothing.

kobe:

Perhaps we die for the same reasons we live.  Either way, without death, there can be no life.

HOW DOES THAT WORK, EXACTLY?

The Oyinbos tell their children that they have to KILL US, in order to make room for a more worthy race- themselves.

That is DARWINISM/MALTHUSIANISM.

kobe:

If we don't die, the world would become overpopulated, and then we all die. 

THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT US TO BELIEVE- BUT IT IS JUST ANOTHER OF THEIR SELF-SERVING LIES.

There are other Worlds in our Universe- not the "EXOPLANETS:" those are LIES- but there are Worlds like Earth capable of sustaining life, and Higher Universes.

These are available through Spiritual Power.

[See: THE FIRE FROM WITHIN, by Carlos Castaneda.
THE CELESTINE PROPHECY, by James Redfield.]

kobe:

We're disposable systems that are designed to fail at a specific time.  Perhaps we die to let others live.

OYINBOS ARE WICKED AND GREEDY, AND WANT EVERYTHING FOR THEMSELVES ALONE.

This Propaganda is the first step in getting us to agree to our own deaths at their hands.

We don't have to listen to THEM.

On the question of why people die

It is a question that has to do with two entities

1. Man and

2. Death


Now, the bible is full of abundant materials from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 on each topic.


For the message of the gospel revolves (solely) around these three:

1. Man

2. Death

3. Life - Salvation (or Man's resurrection from Death by God)

Hence, the message is clear all through the 66 books of the bible as we read diligently across.

However, social media is a desert jungle full of different elements.

You dont know who is asking to learn or just wants to pick peoples head, so i wont be doing a very long exegesis and explanation.

I will just drop quick tips and run out of the thread.

By Gods declaration in Genesis,

Man is dead!

For in the day you shall eat of it, you shall surely die!

Man ate of it but he did not physically drop dead.

So that seems to confuse most of people.

Now in explaining death,

We have to be careful.

Very careful in fact.

For what we call death is not what God calls death.

Jesus will look at a man living and breathing and say he is a dead man!

It means death has a far deeper manifestation than people just losing their physical abilities to breath and pump blood.

First thing we must realize,

According to the whole scriptures,

Man is NOT a spirit living in a body that has a soul.

If we must trust the truth and the thrust of scriptures across the whole of the books, we will see that

Man is spirit, soul and body.

The moment you separate any of the component from the other, man ceases to exist!

For man to be man at all, then bible says, he will have to be spirit, soul and body.

That said.

People have talked about beings, ghosts and other experiences.

I will just say that we cannot trust our own experiences enough to be evidences of truth.

Even ardent lawyers know that evidence is a myth. As well as statisticians agree.

There is nothing of the evidences that can be trusted to be absolutely true.

And the only person on earth that will not need faith to make sense of things is NOT a scientist. No!

The person that will never need faith to understand anything is anybody that absolutely knows absolutely everything about absolutely everything.

So beings, ghosts and experiences of such will not serve as proof enough for their reality.

They can support reality but their mere observation and experience cannot.

The bible has only three beings

1. Man

2. God and

3. Angels (Fallen and Standing)

All these three were involved in the creation and concept of man (as we know it today)

I am already making this too long.


Let me sum up here and shut up now. Lol

My quick tips

A. Man created death in his heart in genesis

When he rejected to live in the nature, life and character of Gods love.

And anything that is not love is death. It's just a matter of time, as we later saw in cain and abel.

B. Man's death was delayed

Very few people noticed this but only very patient and diligent bible students.

What is supposed to happen was that man's sin (refusing to exist and live as a godly being) would bring death.

And the death he caused by sin should have wiped out all of creation.

Everything living or non living should have been completely yanked out of existence the very moment he made that decision (represented in Moses teachings as a tree) to turn against God's work of perfection on his heart.

Because if God says, 'you shall surely die'.

He wasn't joking nor was he offering an opinion.

He was simply telling you the truth.

God was warning Adam that there is no other way to exist outside of God that will not mean and would not bring death.

But God is merciful, who would not have all men perish but would have that all men be saved and to come to the kniwledge of the truth.

Also jeremiah saw this too and said, it is by the lord's mercies that we are not consumed.

Death would have meant the total extermination of man all spirit, soul and body.

So what God did in the garden was preserve the physical existence of the man that he had created while leaving him to live as he has chosen to, apart from God's heart in fear, hatred and murder.

That was how death entered into the world

Romans 5:11-13

Sin entered into the world by man

And

Death entered by sin.

It now goes on to say

And

Death passed upon all men

Why?

For all men have sinned.


Every man adopted the same choice of Adam.

So every man made a choice to live apart from God which means death.

But God's grace and longsuffering preserves a man's physical human life for as long as he can receive God's eternal life.

Man is subject to death. Spirit, soul and body

His spirit, soul and body is subject to death.

So the death goes in three different levels.

Man is not going to die. Man is dead!

The judgment (teaching rather) of God is clear.

Man is dead spirit, soul and body.

Hence,

A man without christ in him is

Dead in spirit

Dead in soul and

Dead in body.


That is why jesus said anyone who does not believe is condemned already.

He is dead already.

But...


For God so loved the world (his creation of which the crown and capital is man) that he gave his only son (a man in his love, life and nature-The Second and Last Adam) that whosoever believes in him (chooses to exist as he is) will not perish but have eternal life (God's very own heart, power and life)


Hence,

Physical death today and since adam is a physical manifestation of the heart condition of man.

Physical death in the body is as a result of the spiritual condition of man.

The tree of life is The Heart of God, The Heart of Life, The Heart of Love.

The tree of doubt and death is The Heart of Man without God in the world, The Heart of Death and Destruction, The Heart of Fear and Hatred.

Jesus now came and abundantly addressed the issue of the heart.

He turned the peoples focus from outwards to inwards.

Your death is not from outside, it is from inside.

What is killing humans is not from outside, it is from inside their own hearts.

He says, 'What kills and destroys a man is not from outside, it is from inside his heart'

That is why the same way we got ourselves into this mess is the same way we get out.

Paul Romans 10: 8-10 states that

If thou shalt believe IN YOUR HEART that Christ rose up from the dead and confess with thy mouth that he is lord (over death and devils), thou shalt be saved.

He now says that

For WITH THE HEART man believes unto righteousness and WITH THE MOUTH confession is made unto SALVATION

C. Man's Authority gave death its power and authority

What or who created viruses, infections, deadly diseases, volcanoes and deadly earthquakes, stormy weather, scorching deserts, raging seas.

Paul wrote on this issue in his brilliant essay in Romans 8

The whole of creation is groaning from the pains and the pangs of death

For the earnest expectation of the whole creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

He now says

The whole creation was subjected unwillingly to the rule of death

By whose will then? God or man?

Obviously, mans choice of existence brought death according Romans 5:12

And man is the king of all of God's creation.

Whatever happens to man happens to everything under his rule and government.

So all of Gods creation began to die and were conforming to death against their own will.

There were different mutations and transformations in all objects and animals including man's body and his universe.

These transformations are what our scientists are studying today and they call (to their best judgment) 'Evolution'.

The truth of the scriptures is that what scientists call evolution is what bible explains across the 66 books as a gradual, slow but consistent degradation of man and the creation put under him decaying from something even a supreme being will observe and shout this is a "Very Good(Perfect) Creation" to The Mortal (Death ruled) creation that it is today.


So the raging seas are simply groaning

The suns tears of pain are being felt as global warming

The pain of death makes animals bark, roar and tear at each other in the wild.

The earth's core and magma has never stopped shifting since adam's death.

The universe is slowing dying

The dissonance being felt and observed in the universe is from the pain and the torture of death.

Man is.so weak. Far weaker than he can ever imagine.

He is just using technology to fool himself.

All he needs to really rest is to turn his heart back to God

The universe and the whole of creation is slowly dying

Peter says, all of heaven and all of the elements shall be rolled up in a fervent heat.

Death is why count time.

The last day in the bible points to the last day death shall have its rule on earth and men shall take back what belongs to them by the power of Gods love in their hearts!

Thus

O Death! Where is thy sting?

O Death! Where is thy victory?