OLAADEGBU:

See these atheists (especially Huxley and bindex) quoting Scriptures and interpreting them, do you want to read what Peter said about such futile exercise?

"As also in all his epistles speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." -- 2 Peter 3:16

Peter did not write 2nd peter, the epsitle is a 2nd centuary forgery but that is for another discussion, You do not know the context in which the writer of the verse you posted wrote what ever he wrote.

What was toneyb's simple question? His question about blaming God for every disaster that has happened has been answered by the link I suggested. And for those whose computers have the problem of linking up I will endeavour to answer it in another way here.

I don't know if you answered toneyb' questions but I asked you if it was your all knowing god who said breeding animals by striped sticks produced striped offspring but you didn't even bother to answer it.

Hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts and earthquakes kill tens of thousands of people each year. A lot of people endure debilitating diseases, endless suffering and pain. Some of you atheists credit Mother Nature for giving us all this grief but you fail to remember that the so called Mother Nature has a[b] Senior Partner who is the Father God.[/b]

If you look at the bible you will see that jews wrote the old testament and 'god did' (baby murder, wars, famine, natural disaters etc) was what they thought. Back then, jewish philosophy did not take into account secondary causes, in other words, anything that happens, good or bad, happens because 'god did it.' Human free will is not taken into account- one does something evil, he did it because god wanted him to do it and that was how they wrote most of the old testament. They een have god hardening people's hearts to make them do evil or go against his will so that he will punish them.

That is how they wrote their book- god did it. The old testament spans roughly 4000 years. now all the horrible things that are listed in the bible that supposedly 'god did', are spanned across 4000 years, meaning that those 'horrible deeds' were scarce and far apart, on top of that, take into account the aforementioned 'secondary causes' and the notion that alot of those things probably were just as natural as the many horrible things that can happen today.thankfully, today we know that everything that happens has a natural cause and reason for its happening. do you think that for some odd reason 3000 years ago, god had more control, more of an impact on the human world? no,Things were the same then as it is today, same wars, same horrible things like earth quakes, floods, and hurricanes that happened then are still happening today, even if not in the same sense or scale. We just now understand more and know more that things have a reason and natural explanation for their being. Ancient jews wrote the old testament. They narrated it in such a manner that places god as the head ventriloquist of the whole human scheme but their narration is terribly flawed

However, if God is an all loving Father figure, as we are told, we seem to have three choices:

[list]
[li]God blew it when He made everything[/li]
[/list]
[list]
[li]God is a tyrant, who gets His kicks from seeing kids die of leukemia[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]Something between God and man is radically wrong.[/li]
[/list]

Those who take time to consider the evidence will choose option three. Which is something between God and man is radically wrong, and the Bible tells us what it is. There is a war going on. We are told that mankind is an enemy of God in his mind through wicked works:

What evidence are you talking about here? So mankind is the enemy of God in his mind through wicked works? Why do you keep saying all this nonsense? Has any god ever told you that or did you read it from some where? We are told by who? your fellow men who thought that the sun moves from place to place?

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath He reconcilled" -- Colossians 1:21

This is not too difficult to see. Man is continually committing violent acts such as murder and rape, lying, stealing, etc., as the daily news confirms. He uses God's name as a curse word, while Mother Nature gets the credit for His creation unless there is a horrible disaster, it is only after this that they would call it the Act of God.

You have forgotten that your own god told his chosen men to, rape, lie, steal and murder others. Do you guys read the bible at all? or do you read it without your sense of reasoning?

An applicable acronym for WAR is We Are Right. If civil war breaks out in the Niger-Delta region today it will be because every faction has the belief that they are right. However, a quick look at God's Moral Law shows us who is right and who is wrong. We, not God, are the guilty party. If we want His blessings back in our nation and in our lives, we must make peace with Him, and that is possible through faith in Jesus Christ.

Do you know what faith is? Faith= "Mental acceptance of and confidence in a claim as truth without proof supporting the claim." I rest my case.

bindex:

If you look at the bible you will see that jews wrote the old testament and 'god did' (baby murder, wars, famine, natural disaters etc) was what they thought. Back then, jewish philosophy did not take into account secondary causes, in other words, anything that happens, good or bad, happens because 'god did it.' Human free will is not taken into account- one does something evil, he did it because god wanted him to do it and that was how they wrote most of the old testament. They een have god hardening people's hearts to make them do evil or go against his will so that he will punish them.

That is how they wrote their book- god did it. The old testament spans roughly 4000 years. now all the horrible things that are listed in the bible that supposedly 'god did', are spanned across 4000 years, meaning that those 'horrible deeds' were scarce and far apart, on top of that, take into account the aforementioned 'secondary causes' and the notion that alot of those things probably were just as natural as the many horrible things that can happen today.thankfully, today we know that everything that happens has a natural cause and reason for its happening. do you think that for some odd reason 3000 years ago, god had more control, more of an impact on the human world? no,Things were the same then as it is today, same wars, same horrible things like earth quakes, floods, and hurricanes that happened then are still happening today, even if not in the same sense or scale. We just now understand more and know more that things have a reason and natural explanation for their being. Ancient jews wrote the old testament. They narrated it in such a manner that places god as the head ventriloquist of the whole human scheme but their narration is terribly flawed

Very well said Bindex. The old testament is just an exaggerated narration of things they did not understand at the time. Their faith at the time was in one almighty god, who is responsible for everything and nothing happens without him wanting it, they did that because they couldn't explain a lot of things naturally. If a jewish king wanted a war, he'd write "god came to me last night while i was eating dinner and told me exactly how to wage this war and how to kill these people because they worshipped other gods." when in reality it is just for the sake of literary imaging. If you can explain everything naturally, then why even postulate god in the first place? He is completely unnecessary.

This is a reply to those who say that god exists because the universe is governed by natural laws. They argue that every law or laws requires a lawgiver and as such there must be a divine Governor. I want to explain here that the universe is not "governed" by anything. A natural law is a mere description, not a prescription. Natural laws are merely human conceptions of the way things normally react, not behavioural mandates, as with societal laws. If the design argument is valid, the mind of a god would be equally "governed" by some principle of order, requiring a higher lawgiver.

amnestylaw:

This is a reply to those who say that god exists because the universe is governed by natural laws. They argue that every law or laws requires a lawgiver and as such there must be a divine Governor. I want to explain here that the universe is not "governed" by anything. A natural law is a mere description, not a prescription. Natural laws are merely human conceptions of the way things normally react, not behavioural mandates, as with societal laws. If the design argument is valid, the mind of a god would be equally "governed" by some principle of order, requiring a higher lawgiver.

You didnt "explain" anything but merely stated a false opinion. If the universe isnt governed by "anything" then why have the stars not crashed to earth in billions of yrs and what has kept the sun burning for so long?

I don't know how people can say there is no GOD.

Just thinking of the clouds, the sun, the stars, the ocean is enough to know there is a supreme being.

Its that simple, how did this things come to be?
Forget the evolutionary theories, the big bang stories.

It could only have been the hand work of a supreme being.

BlueDiva:

I don't know how people can say there is no GOD.

Just thinking of the clouds, the sun, the stars, the ocean is enough to know there is a supreme being.

Its that simple, how did this things come to be?
Forget the evolutionary theories, the big bang stories.

It could only have been the hand work of a supreme being.

  Wisdom in the most simple of statements. Let he who has ears listen.

BlueDiva:

I don't know how people can say there is no GOD.

Just thinking of the clouds, the sun, the stars, the ocean is enough to know there is a supreme being.

Its that simple, how did this things come to be?
Forget the evolutionary theories, the big bang stories.

It could only have been the hand work of a supreme being.

Have you ever bothered to read about the big bang and all the principles it entails? The evloutionary theory is much more plausible than the creationist drivel that is written in genesis 1 and 2 which Christians do not even agree with and are always providing one excuse or another for it, because it stands contrary to the facts of what we see around us. The fact still remains that the world in which we live in was not created according to the narrative in genesis 1 and 2. The bible was talking about a different world not the one we find our selves in.

JeSoul:

  Wisdom in the most simple of statements. Let he who has ears listen.

You should expect the creator of the sun, the clouds and the oceans to tell the people that wrote about how he created them to know to also tell them correctly how they function but instead we have the bible saying that the sun moves from place to place. Which is factually wrong.

lol . . .  Bindex, why God & the bible dey vex you so?

  Leave us christians to our delusions and hallucinations, by all measures, we are very happy with our "non-existent evil God" and not at all bothered when we're labeled insane and foolish . . . the bible already told us to expect it.

BlueDiva:

I don't know how people can say there is no GOD.

I don't know why you people can't come up with credible evidence to prove your god exists

BlueDiva:

Just thinking of the clouds, the sun, the stars, the ocean is enough to know there is a supreme being.

SO who created your god then and which skool did he go to to acquire the knowledge on how to create the universe.

BlueDiva:

IIts that simple, how did this things come to be?
Forget the evolutionary theories, the big bang stories.

Ok so the fairytale story about a an old man creating the planet in 6 days is a lot easier to  believe.

BlueDiva:

It could only have been the hand work of a supreme being.

which supreme being is then Allah Zeus God of the bible etc or did they all combine to create the universe together

bindex:

[b]Have you ever bothered to read about the big bang and all the principles it entails? [/b]The evloutionary theory is much more plausible than the creationist drivel that is written in genesis 1 and 2 which Christians do not even agree with and are always providing one excuse or another for it, because it stands contrary to the facts of what we see around us. The fact still remains that the world in which we live in was not created according to the narrative in genesis 1 and 2. The bible was talking about a different world not the one we find our selves in.

LMAO some people would not kill me with the logic process,

@bindex

1. Please explain the big bang theory to us in simple english.

2. What principles does the big bang entail.

3. What is evolution, please define.

4. Which evolution are you talking about. (is it Cosmic Evolution, Biological Evolution, Macro Evolution, Micro Evolution or Geologic Evolution).

5. Since you know so much about Genesis 1 and 2 can you please describe to us which World it is the those verses was talking about.

6. What is a Narrative.

7. What is a Fact.

8. What is Speculation.

9. What is repeatable Science.

Your simple and non-insulting response is highly appreciated.

@No2Atheism

Abeg no vex o. . I was meaning to drop a line for your about that 'small assignment', remember? I no forget you at all - quite some interesting articles from the authors. I go drop you some of my observations when time reach. Stay blessed bro.

BlueDiva:

I don't know how people can say there is no GOD.

Just thinking of the clouds, the sun, the stars, the ocean is enough to know there is a supreme being.

Its that simple, how did this things come to be?
Forget the evolutionary theories, the big bang stories.

It could only have been the hand work of a supreme being.

My friend, I thank you for your response. Most people see the existence of god from your point of view. They say[b]"where did it all come from? How can you explain the complex order of the universe/ I can't beleive the beauty of nature just happened by accident. Design requires a designer."[/b]
Do you realise that this argument merely assumes what it wishes to prove? Any attempt to "explain" requires a hgher context within which it can be understood. To ask for the explanation of the 'natural universe' is simply to demand a "higher universe".
The universe is "all there is"  It is not a thing. A god would certainly be a part of "all there is", and if the universe requires an explanation, then god requires an explanation, ad infinitum.
The mind of god would be at least as complex and orderly as the rest of nature and would be subject to the same question: WHO MADE GOD? If a god can be thought eternal, then so can the universe.
There is design IN the universe, but to speak of design OF the universe is just theistic semantics. The perceived design in nature is not necessarily intelligent. Life is the result the mindless "design"  of natural selection. Order in the cosmos comes from the "design"  of natural regularity. There is no need for a higher explanation.
My dear friend, the design argument is based on ignorance, not facts. Failure to solve a natural riddle does not mean there is no answer. For millenia humans have created mythical answers to "mysteries" such as thunder(sango), sickle celle(abiku) and fertility. But the more we learn, the fewer gods we need. god belief is just answering a mystery with mystery, and therefore answers nothing.

The sun, the clouds, the moon are proof that there is an almighty?
I thought bindex posted something about this earth not designed to accommodate us?
Those are really words of wisdom

pilgrim.1:

@No2Atheism

Abeg no vex o. . I was meaning to drop a line for your about that 'small assignment', remember? I no forget you at all - quite some interesting articles from the authors. I go drop you some of my observations when time reach. Stay blessed bro.

Thanks a lot , i feel honoured that you never forget , cus i really need an informed second opinion on that issue. cus the articles seem to be well researched and convincing hence your opiinon would certainly be welcomed.

i cant honestly believe manmustwac is here too?

manmustwac:

Ok so the fairytale story about a an old man creating the planet in 6 days is a lot easier to  believe.

You found it a lot easier to believe the lies of another female . . . why is this any different? Abeg leave story.

Chrisbenogor:

The sun, the clouds, the moon are proof that there is an almighty?
I thought bindex posted something about this earth not designed to accommodate us?
Those are really words of wisdom

 I liken looking at the world and claiming it was as a result of colliding chance of perfect molecules and atoms at the perfect times and in the perfect proportions and to the same end

    to

looking at a laptop in all its complex details of chips and units and processors all working in perfect harmony and to the same end

    and then having the inexplicable, unjustifiable nerve to say it happened by chance.

amnestylaw:

My dear friend, the design argument is based on ignorance, not facts.

Well the reverse chance argument is based on ignorance not facts. Infact its even more improbable.

Pls show me how to create my own sun by smashing some atoms together.

davidylan:

Well the reverse chance argument is based on ignorance not facts. Infact its even more improbable.

Pls show me how to create my own sun by smashing some atoms together.

Many theists, when they realize their philosophical arguments have failed, will resort to stereotypical character attacks.

JeSoul:

 I liken looking at the world and claiming it was as a result of colliding chance of perfect molecules and atoms at the perfect times and in the perfect proportions and to the same end

    to

looking at a laptop in all its complex details of chips and units and processors all working in perfect harmony and to the same end

    and then having the inexplicable, unjustifiable nerve to say it happened by chance.

Who told you that the universe has to behave like the human society? There's no reason to assume the universe functions like human society where everything has to be created by someone or something. How do you know that there was a "who" to begin with? Religion is the outcome of man’s struggle with natural phenomenon which he does not understand. Mazaje once made a very interesting post and let me post it here again.

the cause of lightning was once thought to be god's wrath, but it turned out to be the unintelligent outcome of mindless natural forces the same goes for earth quake. people once thought an intelligent being must have arranged and maintained the amazingly ordered motions of the solar system, but now we know it's all the inevitable outcome of mindless natural forces. disease were once thought to be the mischief of supernatural demons or due to the wrath of god(the bible says that alot), but now we know that tiny, unintelligent organisms are the cause, which reproduce and infect us according to mindless natural forces. in case after case, without exception, the trend has been to find that purely natural causes underlie any phenomena. not once has the cause of anything turned out to really be god's wrath or intelligent meddling, or demonic mischief, or anything supernatural at all. The collective weight of these observations is enormous: supernaturalism has been tested at least a million times and has always lost; naturalism has been tested at least a million times and has always won.

This is a very interesting post from Mazaje.

that is the argument that creationist always use to try to prove non existent points. . . they are quick to point out that no one knows where god or the creator came from, they always say that nobody has ever been able to say where god came from i.e the theological first cause argument. . .this has never really gotten anybody anywhere, because if they argue that everything has to have a cause, or a creator, then they have to face up to the question of who created god and if they argue that there are some exceptions, or even one, then why not accept that the exception might as well be the physical universe as god?


Another interesting post too from Mazaje.

amnestylaw:

Many theists, when they realize their philosophical arguments have failed, will resort to stereotypical character attacks.

that is absurd.

1. there was NO character attack in my post at all . . . infact all i did was simply copy YOUR VERY OWN phrase and turn it around. you say that design argument is based on ignorance not facts . . . is your own chance argument based on facts? Pls show us these elusive facts. If you demand facts from us surely its because you are brimming with your own facts no?

2. What is wrong in asking you how the sun was created? I believe God created it . . . you say that's delusional and absurd . . . i ask YOU how the sun appeared on earth . . . and all of a sudden you're seeing character attacks?

davidylan:

that is absurd.

1. there was NO character attack in my post at all . . . infact all i did was simply copy YOUR VERY OWN phrase and turn it around. you say that design argument is based on ignorance not facts . . . is your own chance argument based on facts? Pls show us these elusive facts. If you demand facts from us surely its because you are brimming with your own facts no?

2. What is wrong in asking you how the sun was created? I believe God created it . . . you say that's delusional and absurd . . . i ask YOU how the sun appeared on earth . . . and all of a sudden you're seeing character attacks?

Sorry that reply was meant for someone else and not you. However, your question does not demands an answer because i feel we are supposed to be in serious "business". Why ask me to teach you how to create your own sun? Did i inform you that I am a sun creator tutor master? What i meant was that order in the cosmos comes from the "design" of natural regularity. If you must learn how to create your own sun, then go to nature and learn.

amnestylaw:

Sorry that reply was meant for someone else and not you. However, your question does not demands an answer because i feel we are supposed to be in serious "business". Why ask me to teach you how to create your own sun? Did i inform you that I am a sun creator tutor master? [size=14pt]What i meant was that order in the cosmos comes from the "design" of natural regularity.[/size] If you must learn how to create your own sun, then go to nature and learn.

this is pure bogus grammar. It makes absolutely no shred of scientific sense. What "design of natural regularity" is this? Why did nature create just one sun for the entire earth and multiple suns for others? How did nature just "design" the earth such that it is JUST right for man:

1. Why do we have an oxygen concentration of 21% in the air but not 100%?
2. How has the moon maintained one single course over billions of yrs?
3. Why hasnt nature gone berserk and made drastic changes to the earth such as would place man in serious peril?

Why do you tell me to go to nature to learn then call me absurd when i ask you to go to the bible to learn? Is nature not a more abstract term?

Who is nature? where is she? Can you prove that she exists?

No2Atheism:

LMAO some people would not kill me with the logic process,

@bindex

1. Please explain the big bang theory to us in simple english.

2. What principles does the big bang entail.

3. What is evolution, please define.

4. Which evolution are you talking about. (is it Cosmic Evolution, Biological Evolution, Macro Evolution, Micro Evolution or Geologic Evolution).

5. Since you know so much about Genesis 1 and 2 can you please describe to us which World it is the those verses was talking about.

6. What is a Narrative.

7. What is a Fact.

8. What is Speculation.

9. What is repeatable Science.

Your simple and non-insulting response is highly appreciated.

If you bother to read my post you will see that I clearly stated that the theories are more plausible than the creation accounts we have in genesis 1 and 2 that have NO evidence to support them and go against what we see in the natural universe. I do not believe in the big bang or all the types of evolution that you have listed, but their assertions are much more plausible than the ridiculous drivel you have in your bible. The bible creation accounts should have some scientific evidence at least don't you think so?

bindex:

If you bother to read my post you will see that I clearly stated that the theories are more plausible than the creation accounts we have in genesis 1 and 2 that have NO evidence to support them and go against what we see in the natural universe. I do not believe in the big bang or all the types of evolution that you have listed, but their assertions are much more plausible than the ridiculous drivel you have in your bible. [size=13pt]The bible creation accounts should have some scientific evidence at least don't you think so?[/size]

i never hear you demand "scientific evidence" of the ridiculous claims of how the earth appeared here. Even if you were to get these evidence i doubt you'd be able to process it. Many of you have no idea what science is all about . . .

davidylan:

this is pure bogus grammar. It makes absolutely no shred of scientific sense. What "design of natural regularity" is this? Why did nature create just one sun for the entire earth and multiple suns for others? How did nature just "design" the earth such that it is JUST right for man:

1. Why do we have an oxygen concentration of 21% in the air but not 100%?
2. How has the moon maintained one single course over billions of yrs?
3. Why hasnt nature gone berserk and made drastic changes to the earth such as would place man in serious peril?

Why do you tell me to go to nature to learn then call me absurd when i ask you to go to the bible to learn? Is nature not a more abstract term?

Who is nature? where is she? Can you prove that she exists?

Does the bible really know how nature works? What is there about nature than can be learned from the bible? . Do the writers of the bible know that the oxygen concentration is 21% in the air? What is there to learn about nature in a book that says the sun moves from place to place or that evil spirits cause diseases?  

bindex:

Does the bible really know how nature works? What is there about nature than can be learned from the bible? . Do the writers of the bible know that the oxygen concentration is 21% in the air? What is there to learn about nature in a book that says the sun moves from place to place or that evil spirits causes diseases?  

You dont know how nature works either. The best you seem to be able to do is scoff, we cant seem to get any tangible stuff from many of you blowhards.

davidylan:

i never hear you demand "scientific evidence" of the ridiculous claims of how the earth appeared here. Even if you were to get these evidence i doubt you'd be able to process it. Many of you have no idea what science is all about . . .

The reason is that all the claims are all ridiculous to me as you have said (both religious and scientfic claims). But if I am to choose i will rather choose the scientific explanation than to choose the explanation of ancient people who thought that the god they created in their own image lived up in the clouds and is afraid of men building a tower that will reach him up in the sky. When we ask you to explain to us using your knowledge of science some of the biblical assertions you begin to shout that it is a miracle as if that explains anything.

davidylan:

Why did nature create just one sun for the entire earth and multiple suns for others? How did nature just "design" the earth such that it is JUST right for man:
To answer you I would say the earth did not and was not "designed" for man to live, rather, man adapted through evolution to the conditions of the earth. It took Millions or probalby billions of years for man to be able to adapt to living on earth.

1. Why do we have an oxygen concentration of 21% in the air but not 100%?
2. How has the moon maintained one single course over billions of yrs?
3. Why hasnt nature gone berserk and made drastic changes to the earth such as would place man in serious peril?
You seem to forget that Tsunamis, Earthquakes, natural disasters, , are natures way of "going bersek" and putting man in serious peril at one time or the other. It is possible that someday, the earth will no longer be or man may no longer find the earth suitable for accommodation. That is , evolution in action.

Why do you tell me to go to nature to learn then call me absurd when i ask you to go to the bible to learn? Is nature not a more abstract term?

Who is nature? where is she? Can you prove that she exists?

Why should i go to the bible when other "holy books" are begging for consideration? who authored thye bible, man or god?

davidylan:

You dont know how nature works either. The best you seem to be able to do is scoff, we cant seem to get any tangible stuff from many of you blowhards.

Of course I don't but i have never asserted something about nature that is completely false the way the bible did. The bible claims to know how nature works but says things that are naturally incorrect.

amnestylaw:

Why should i go to the bible when other "holy books" are begging for consideration? who authored thye bible, man or god?

funny how you ignored PRACTICALLY EVERY QUESTION i asked as regards your fantasy "nature". Funny how none of you wants to be drawn in to tackling serious problems as regards your chance argument . . . you'd rather recycle the same absurd questions.

While you were bothering about who authored the bible, did it ever occur to you to ask just who made the sun?

The best you seem to be able to do is scoff, we cant seem to get any tangible stuff from many of you blowhards.
[quote][/quote]datz 1 of d xticks of all dis scientists o,,, ask dem abt d surs of nature n dey'll stat tellin u stories.